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Post by anechrome on Feb 9, 2021 21:51:52 GMT
So, I'm pretty sure there's no official answer to this, but if anyone can but the discussion to rest I think this forum may be my best bet. How does this work? A character with fencer's blades walks up to a character that causes fear and fails his fear test. Now, is the scared character first reduced to WS1 and then the blades brings him back up to WS10, or is it the other way around where the blades gives him WS10 and then the fear reduces him to WS1?
I've seached alot of forums for this and the only viable argument/example I can find is where one character has the shrieking blade and the other has the fencer's blades and a Ld of 7. In this case, a 5p item has a 42% chance to nullify the effects of a 35p item, which arguably makes the lesser item very powerful. Not sure if this is a clue, but wanted to get an opinion on this aswell.
Thoughts, ideas and best of all some kind of official reference would be great!
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Feb 9, 2021 23:47:49 GMT
Most rules discussions disappear, if you apply the simple principle: unless specifically stated otherwise, normal rules apply. While the Fencer's Blades gives a model WS 10, it does not specifically state that it overrules any other effect reducing WS, like the result of a failed Fear test. Hence, it does not. You just start off with WS 10, and then apply any other effects that may influence WS.
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Post by anechrome on Feb 10, 2021 0:10:52 GMT
But this would assume that the item only gives it's effect at the start of the game or at the start of each turn, and not constantly. Is there anything in the rules to back this up? I agree that it doesn't state anywhere that the blades effect overrules any other effects, but the same can be said for the Shrieking blade, no?
Edit: Not for the Shrieking blade - for the Fear-rule itself. It doesn't specifically state that it overrides magical effects.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Feb 10, 2021 0:33:35 GMT
I am not quite sure where the problem is. All effects can be modified by other effects - unless specifically stated otherwise. The rules of Fencer's Blades give a model WS 10 - that is no different than the rules of a model giving it WS 3 in its profile. A model with the Shrieking Blade causes Fear. That is it. It is still subject to all the other other rules. Hence, it will not cause Fear in other models that are Immune to Psychology, or cause Fear themselves, and it will have to test for Fear itself, if confronted with models that cause Terror.
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Post by vulcan on Feb 10, 2021 3:39:56 GMT
Consider Enfeebling Foe vs. the Dark Elf's magic weapon Crimson Death. The Crimson Death provides S6 that cannot be altered in any way. Enfeebling Foe reduces the Strength of the target... but Crimson Death ignores it. Or perhaps more to the point, the target loses Strength, but retains the ability to attack at S6 because the Crimson Death has a specific exception to the normal rules.
The Fencer's Blades just provide WS 10. This can be reduced and altered as normal - say, Melkoth's Miasma, fear, stuff like that, because the Fencer's Blades lacks the exception the Crimson Death possesses.
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Post by anechrome on Feb 10, 2021 12:13:07 GMT
This is what I can't really get my head around. Either the effect from a magic item is constantly applied or, as Vulcan states, the effect is applied at the start of battle and can then be changed by other effects. The reason why I find this troublesome is of what happens the turn after the fearcheck has failed. Let's say the character with the fencer's blades passes his fearcheck in the second turn of battle. Is the WS then returned to his original statvalue (since the effect is not constant) or is it returned to 10 (because the effect is constant). If the effect is constant, then why would it then not also return to WS10 then second after the fearcheck is failed?
I'm sorry if I can't explain this very well, but I hope it's clear enough...
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Feb 10, 2021 12:30:56 GMT
As long as a model has the Fencer's Blades, it has WS 10, rather than the WS on its profile. However, just as the WS on its profile can be modified by various effects, so does the WS gained from Fencer's Blades. As long as such an effect is active, the WS (whether from the profile or Fencer's Blades) will remain modified. If the effect stops, the WS will no longer be modified. It is as simple as that.
If a model with the FB fails a Fear test, its WS is reduced to 1 "for the remainder of that round of close combat." After that, it returns to WS 10 (provided, of course, it is still has the Fencer's Blades.)
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Post by anechrome on Feb 10, 2021 12:41:56 GMT
Ok, that seems reasonable, but if I remember correctly it goes the other way around when it comes to the reasoning behind van Horstmanns speculum, does it not? The stats are swapped before the effects of magical items are added?
Edit: Maybe I should explain that better... Character A has A3 and a Sword of Strife Character B has van A2 and van Horstmanns In a challenge B get's A3, not A5.
Right? So in this case the constant effect (Ogre blade) is not overridden by the temporary effect (van Horstmanns)?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Feb 10, 2021 13:19:42 GMT
The characteristic value of a model consists of the value on its profile (which is constant) plus any boni or mali that are currently in effect. The speculum swaps the characteristics on the profiles, after which any boni (like the +2S of the Ogre Blade) or mali are added.
Note that the effect of the Ogre Blade only applies to CC attacks. It would not apply to e.g. S tests.
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Post by anechrome on Feb 10, 2021 13:29:24 GMT
Ogre blade; Yes I saw that and therefor changed it to Sword of Strife.
I get what you're saying, but where does it say that the effects of fear applies AFTER the boni is added? Or is that just implied because it's not phrased as in it reduces the WS of "the profile" to 1?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Feb 10, 2021 14:03:23 GMT
Yes, unless a rule specifically states that it affects the characteristic on the profile, it is the actual characteristic value that is affected. In any case: while FB is a bonus, it is not added to the WS on the profile - it replaces it.
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Post by anechrome on Feb 10, 2021 14:22:29 GMT
Uh, now you lost me again... Where does it say that the effect from the FB is applied before, and ONLY before, other temporary effects? Why does the effect from the blade not kick in after the fear has taken effect but before the character strikes? As you stated before; All effects can be modified by other effects - unless specifically stated otherwise. Fear does not have this caviat in the rules. So what is it that prevents the FB to effect the fearstricken character directly and replace his WS1 with WS10?
Sorry for being difficult.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Feb 10, 2021 14:59:42 GMT
Unless specifically stated otherwise, basic rules apply. The FB rules (BRB p. 501) state: "The bearer has Weapon Skill 10." They do not specifically state that the normal rules regarding characteristic values do not apply. Hence, they do apply.
The FB effect is not temporary: as long as the FB exist, the bearer has WS 10, which, however, just like any other WS score can be modified. Hence, a failed Fear test will reduce that to WS 1 for the remainder of that round of close combat. There is nothing in the FB rules that would allow him to pop back to WS 10. One might just as well argue that because the profile says a model has WS 6, it would also pop back to WS 6.
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Post by anechrome on Feb 10, 2021 15:09:14 GMT
Oh, I think I see where you're coming from. Am I right in assuming that because the weapon effect is there before the fear takes effect you then apply the fear over the magic? And if so, if hypotheticly a feared character would pick up a FB before he attacks the weapon would then override the fear?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Feb 10, 2021 15:26:23 GMT
Yes. For instance, Luthor Huss can once per game add D3 to his WS, S, T & A at the start of any close combat phase. Since that would be resolved at the same time as a Fear test, the player whose turn it is would decide the sequence. If the Fear test is taken first, Luthor Huss could then add D3 to WS1.
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