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Post by vulcan on Feb 10, 2021 16:48:04 GMT
This is what I can't really get my head around. Either the effect from a magic item is constantly applied or, as Vulcan states, the effect is applied at the start of battle and can then be changed by other effects. The reason why I find this troublesome is of what happens the turn after the fearcheck has failed. Let's say the character with the fencer's blades passes his fearcheck in the second turn of battle. Is the WS then returned to his original statvalue (since the effect is not constant) or is it returned to 10 (because the effect is constant). If the effect is constant, then why would it then not also return to WS10 then second after the fearcheck is failed? I'm sorry if I can't explain this very well, but I hope it's clear enough... You're overthinking things. It's right there in the rules. Fencer's blades provides WS10 with no exception to the normal rules. Crimson Death provides S6 with a specific exception to the normal rules. No exception? Follow the normal rules.
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Post by anechrome on Feb 10, 2021 17:32:41 GMT
Great, I get your line of thought now and if that is how magical items is suppose to work I'm totally on board. But where does it say that this is how it works, that the effect from the item is only being applied at the start of the game (or when it's picked up) and not continously. I.e. Rule 1. User has WS10. Rule 2. If anything interfears with that, see rule 1. Period. Every second of every turn. For all eternity until death do them part.
You both seem to agree that this is not the case, but is it stated anywhere in the BRB or FAQs? Compare with Luthor Huss: "the effects starts at time X, effects the target Y times and ends at time Z"? If a statement like this one is absent, what reason is there to think this can be overridden by anything?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Feb 10, 2021 19:35:40 GMT
It simply does not work that way. Unless specifically stated otherwise, normal rules apply - that is why they are the normal rules. So, one does not need extra proof that normal rules apply. However, if you want an exemption of the normal rules, then you need additional proof.
There is no problem with your Rule 1. However, you have no proof whatsoever of Rule 2.
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Post by anechrome on Feb 10, 2021 19:38:28 GMT
But what is the normal rule that says magic items only gives their effect once and not every turn or every phase or every second tuesday?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Feb 10, 2021 20:10:10 GMT
Sigh. As I stated before, the FB does have a continuous effect - but is still subject to the normal rules.
If there is a spell that reduces WS, the model's WS will be reduced accordingly - but FB remain in effect, because the WS 10 is the point of departure, rather than the WS in the profile. For instance, a model with WS 4 on its profile has the FB, and is affected by the Transmutation of Lead, a hex giving a -1 penalty to Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill and armour saves. Hence, the bearer of the FB will now have a WS 9, rather than a WS of 3, which it would be if the FB had no effect.
However, in the case of a failed Fear test, any WS score is reduced to WS 1. The WS 10 of the FB is not gone, just like the WS of the profile is not gone (it is written black and white in the AB), except that both are temporarily superseded by a rule that specifically states that WS is reduced to 1.
And unless you have a rule specifically stating that you are exempt, you are not.
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Post by anechrome on Feb 10, 2021 20:23:34 GMT
Uuungh, maybe I can't explain this well enough but we are not talking about the same thing.
You are saying the effect is contionous. I'm saying the effect may be continously applied. It's not the same thing.
Think of it like this. You are describing it like the FB is a gun that shoots you with a WS10 bullet. And once you are shot, you are WS10. I'm saying it may be a machinegun with an unlimited magazine of WS10 bullets jammed up your behind and you can't shut it off.
In your example with the Transmutation of lead, the WS, BS and AS would be -1, but since the character is holding the FB his WS would still be 10 because the effect is (maybe) not applied just before the Transmutation spell but while the spell is being cast, when it takes effect and also 0,2 parts of a second later.
Agree or not, do you at least understand what I mean?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Feb 10, 2021 20:40:59 GMT
Duh. I understood you right from the start. But there is no rule to support that. The main problem is that you put the cart before the horse, and think, if there is no rule specifically saying I cannot do X, then I can do X; while in Warhammer it is the other way around: unless you have a rule specifically saying that you can do X, you cannot.
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Post by anechrome on Feb 10, 2021 20:45:58 GMT
Great, then tell me, where is the rule that says it works the way you describe it?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Feb 10, 2021 21:35:57 GMT
BRB p. 11: "Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless specifically stated otherwise." BRB p. 69: "At the start of each Close Combat round, a unit that is in base contact with one or more enemy models that cause Fear must take a Leadership test, before any blows are struck. If the test is passed, all is well — the unit has mastered its fear, at least for now. If the test is failed, die unit's fear goes uncontrolled and the warriors cower defensively from the horror before them — all models in the unit have their Weapon Skill reduced to 1 for the remainder of that round of close combat."
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Post by anechrome on Feb 10, 2021 22:25:09 GMT
I'm starting to think you misunderstand me on purpose... I'm not asking where it says that basic rules apply. I'm not asking where it says how fear works.
I'm asking where it says that Magic effects from items are applied only at the start of the game and are continous as oppoesed to being continously applied during the game.
Not sure how I can make it any clearer.
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Post by DiscoQing on Feb 11, 2021 8:47:05 GMT
You're saying that FB sets the bearer's WS to 10, which is static & unchangeable (as it is continuously being set to 10).
That's not how this item works.
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Post by anechrome on Feb 11, 2021 9:31:08 GMT
You're saying that FB sets the bearer's WS to 10, which is static & unchangeable (as it is continuously being set to 10). That's not how this item works. No. I am saying that since I cannot find anything in the rules that tells us when and how many times the effect from magic items are applied, then this MAY be one possible way it works. There are other possibilities as well and I'm not saying any of them are right, I'm questioning how we know for certain which one is correct. I'm looking for a rulesrefernce, book and pagenumber, that clears up at what time or times the effects are applied. Fvon seem very sure it doesn't work the way I described, and as you seem to agree, then instead of just stating "That's not how this item works" just tell me where it where you get this information from or at least change the statement to "I don't THINK that's the way this item works". And just to be clear; It's not just for FB, it's for all magical items in the game where it doesn't say specifically in the item description when the effects are applied to the wearer.
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Post by rahotep75 on Feb 11, 2021 11:46:27 GMT
Where in the rules does it support your position? You are asking for others to prove their points with rules quotes, but you haven’t supplied any yourself.
As FVon often points out, WFB rules are permissive. They describe what you can do. If the rules don’t specifically mention that you can do something, then you cannot. The Fencers Blades do not specifically give you an exception to any other rules. They simply set your WS to 10. There is no protection for that increased WS from being altered beyond the normal rule that says a statistic may not be reduced below 1 or increased above 10.
The closest situation that I could find is from the Rulebook FAQ:
Q. If an enemy unit is affected by the Doom and Darkness spell, and the unit is within the general’s Inspiring Presence radius, does the Leadership value conferred by Inspiring Presence suffer the modifier even if the General is not affected? (Reference) A: Yes.
Q: If a unit taking a Leadership test has a modifier to its Leadership, will this modifier still apply if the unit uses the General’s Leadership, because of the Inspiring Presence special rule for example? (p10) A: Yes.
Now, you may argue that Inspiring Presence is not a “permanent” ability like the Fencers Blades would give you, so I present this as well:
Q: If a model with the Loremaster special rule suffers a Power Drain result from the Miscast table, do they lose spells as normal? (p72) A: Yes
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Post by anechrome on Feb 11, 2021 12:32:46 GMT
As to your question about support for my position, it still seems unclear to what my position is, so let me try to explain it in a new way; I am not saying that X is true. I am instead saying that if Y is not proven, then X and perhaps Z are possible. Not true, not certain, just possible. There is no reference in the rules I can give since this is a statement from logic, not from the texts. Now, both Fvon and Disco are stating that Y is true, but when asked to provide reference they state rules that are not regarding magical items.
In your examples above, which are very interesting btw and may absolutely give a hint to how it works, they are not referring to magical items as the source of the abilities being supressed. Let's say for example that both the Inspiring Presence and the Loremaster ability are permanent effects, then they start having effect at the beginning of the game and are then subject to change without a magic item trying to constantly change it back. First the ability takes effect, then the modifier from a spell or miscast is applied. However, unless stated somewhere I've missed, there is nothing that let's us know that magic items give their bearers their power ONLY at the start of the game.
Another way to think of it is like this: You have a working heart of exeptional pumping (magic item that is activated at the start of the game, or even before, and has a permanent effect). A necromancer throws the spell "Stop heart" on you. Heart stops. You die. Now we rewind the scenario and install a pacemaker of flawless excellence (a magical item that starts before the game, but provides its benefit not just once but multiple times over a permanent amount of time) in you. Necromancer casts the spell. Heart stops as the spell takes effect. Pacemaker detects the error and restarts it instantly. You do not die. Two magical items, both with permanent effects, but depending on how they work have different effects on the outcome of the situation.
Still, I'm not saying that this IS the case. I'm not even sure that there are not more possible scenarios to be had. I'm just saying that unless there is something to clear this out in the text, we cannot logically be sure.
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Post by vulcan on Feb 11, 2021 16:16:14 GMT
Great, I get your line of thought now and if that is how magical items is suppose to work I'm totally on board. But where does it say that this is how it works, that the effect from the item is only being applied at the start of the game (or when it's picked up) and not continously. I.e. Rule 1. User has WS10. Rule 2. If anything interfears with that, see rule 1. Period. Every second of every turn. For all eternity until death do them part. You both seem to agree that this is not the case, but is it stated anywhere in the BRB or FAQs? Compare with Luthor Huss: "the effects starts at time X, effects the target Y times and ends at time Z"? If a statement like this one is absent, what reason is there to think this can be overridden by anything? You're still overthinking it. Warhammer rules tell you what you can do. If they don't say you can do it, then you cannot do it. Crimson Death has a specific rule giving an exception to the normal rules of adjusting the strength of an attack. Fencer's Blades do not have a rule giving an exception to the normal rules of adjusting the weapon skill of an attack. Thus, with Crimson Death you can ignore effects that change the strength of the attack, but with Fencer's Blades you cannot ignore effects that change the weapon skill of the attack. It's that simple.
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