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Post by jeffus on Feb 26, 2021 9:07:23 GMT
Hi, Playing against an Orc & Goblin army and an attempt was made to move a doom diver war machine via a spell (sorry can’t remember the exact spell but it allowed you to move the war machine or any unit something like 4-5 D6 in any direction). The attempt failed but it did raise the question if it had succeeded would the war machine been able to fire in the shooting phase of that same turn? Also if any other unit was moved in a similar way do they count as having moved for shooting purposes?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Feb 26, 2021 10:03:19 GMT
You are probably referring to the "Hand of Gork" spell. Most rules questions can be easily resolved by applying this principle: unless specifically stated otherwise, normal rules apply. Since the spell description does not specifically state otherwise, normal rules apply, and the unit would have counted as having moved.
This is further supported by the FAQ regarding this spell (O&G Official Update Version 1.2, p. 2):
Q: Can a unit of Night Goblins that are concealing Fanatics be placed any closer than 8" to an enemy using the Hand of Gork spell (p53/72) A: Yes, though you must follow all the normal rules for stopping to release the Fanatics from 8" away before you finish your move.
Q: Can the Hand of Gork spell be used to move a unit into or out of a building? (p72) A: No.
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Post by jeffus on Feb 26, 2021 13:15:57 GMT
Many thanks for the prompt and very helpful reply
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Feb 26, 2021 22:31:16 GMT
We serve to please and please to serve.
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Post by anechrome on Feb 27, 2021 16:58:20 GMT
Is there really no difference in the rules between moving and being moved when it comes to shooting? Seems a bit odd? The Q&A answer from the FAQ could just be a solution to a specific problem, so I wouldn't trust that as being a general principle.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Feb 27, 2021 17:11:47 GMT
You are overthinking things again. A unit cannot be moved without also moving.
Here are the normal rules (Italics mine):
BRB p. 40 (updated): "Models that moved for any reason during this turn will have less time to aim, making their shots less accurate and suffering a shooting modifier of -1."
BRB p. 73: "A weapon with the Move or Fire special rule cannot be fired in the Shooting phase if the model moved earlier in the turn. This even applies if the model in question was forced to move as the result of a spell or other such compulsory action."
As the spell that does not specifically state an exemption, normal rules apply.
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Post by anechrome on Feb 27, 2021 17:21:46 GMT
No, I don't think I am. All of the rules BRB 40 and BRB 73 is in regards to the unit moving themselves, not being moved by something else.
Consider the effects if being moved and moving were the same thing for spells like Fulminating Flame Cage and Net of Amyntok. If moving and being moved are considered the same, then a Flamecaged unit would take damage if you Hand of Gork it and a Netted unit would have to pass a strenght test or the Hand of Gork wouldn't work. I really don't think that is how it's supposed to work, unless I missed something in a FAQ somewhere...
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Feb 27, 2021 17:52:34 GMT
Well, we could now indulge in a philosophical discussion about the difference of moving and being moved, ending up perhaps with Aristotle's unmoved mover, or, more likely, Zeno's arrow paradox, but let us instead simply go the Oxford dictionary:
move (v): 1 go or cause to go in a specified direction or manner 2. change or cause to change position
If you cause something to go somewhere, it has gone somewhere; if you cause something to change position, it has changed its position.
And yes, it does apply to Fulminating Flame Cage and Net of Amyntok too, because, unless specifically stated otherwise, normal rules apply.
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Post by anechrome on Feb 27, 2021 18:29:42 GMT
Well, we don't even have to be that philosofical. Use this very real example that happens several times a week instead: You walk into an elevator and step on a landmine. The rules of the landmine says: If you move, the mine will go off. Now push the button for the 7th floor...
But seriously, yes, normal rules apply, but the normal rules you have referenced says nothing about units being moved. They are about units moving and being forced to move. This may be because the "being moved" is implied or because it was only ment to be in regards to units using their legs or wing or paws to change position. We can't really know for sure and that leads me to believe that in this case it would be better to use the Most important rule instead.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Feb 27, 2021 21:38:56 GMT
If a spell like Hand of Gork moves unit from position A to B, the unit is not forced to move? Can the unit somehow decide that it will not be moved, despite of the spell? Humbug. Either the movement is voluntary or it is not. In either case, it is covered by the normal rules. That said, so far, and as usual, you have not quoted any rule specifically saying otherwise - indeed, you have not quoted a rule at all. And as we have been trying to tell you: in Warhammer, you need a rule telling you that you can do something; otherwise you cannot. But since there is none so deaf as those who will not hear, I'll leave it at that.
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Post by anechrome on Feb 27, 2021 22:54:53 GMT
You're asking me to quote a rule when there is none?? And as for the forced or not forced to move you are missing my point. If you picked up a statue and move it from point A to point B. The statue has been moved, it has been forced to move, but an it is still not a moving statue. How about this: If an empire archer is standing on a boat and the boat moves in the movement phase, would you say the archer has -1 to hit when he then shoots in the shooting phase because it has moved?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Feb 28, 2021 8:38:12 GMT
You're asking me to quote a rule when there is none?? Exactly. There is no rule to support your assertion. And as has been explained to you various times by various persons: unless you have a rule specifically saying that you can do X, you cannot; and unless specifically stated otherwise, normal rules apply. Not only cannot you quote a rule, the actual usage of "move" in the BRB does not distinguish between "move" and "be moved." Just some examples: BRB p. 27: Units that consist of a single model, such as monsters, chariots, lone characters or sole survivors of annihilated units, are mostly moved the same as other units. They move, wheel and march just like a larger unit.BRB p. 74: Models with Random Movement cannot declare charges, and are always moved in the Compulsory Moves sub-phase. When the model moves, first pivot it about its centre to face the direction in which you wish it to travel. BRB p. 97: As a unit can move only before the character joins, it's better to move the unit first and then have the character move to join it. BRB p. 197: If the unit does not enter the building it is moved directly backwards 1". And as for the forced or not forced to move you are missing my point. If you picked up a statue and move it from point A to point B. The statue has been moved, it has been forced to move, but an it is still not a moving statue. How about this: If an empire archer is standing on a boat and the boat moves in the movement phase, would you say the archer has -1 to hit when he then shoots in the shooting phase because it has moved? No need to rely on imaginary examples - let us use an example that actually exists. If an archer is standing on a chariot, and the chariot moves in the Movement phase, the archer does indeed suffer -1 to Hit, when he shoots in the Shooting phase, because it has moved.
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Post by anechrome on Feb 28, 2021 8:45:01 GMT
The chariot is a mount for the model. The hand of gork is not. How about you answer the question about the archer boat instead?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Feb 28, 2021 12:28:31 GMT
The question is completely moot, since there is no such option. And if there would have been, the rules regarding boats would need to specify anything that differed from the normal rules. For instance, boats could follow the rules for mounts, adapted rules for buildings, or (most likely) a completely new set of rules.
On two general notes:
1. In a discussion about the rules of a game, the only valid arguments are based on the rules of that game. Arguments that are extraneous to the game in question have no value whatsoever.
2. Regarding language: WFB does have a specific register, where words have a specific meaning within the game, that deviates from the general usage. Terms belonging to that register are sometimes indicated by the use of a capital (e.g. Wizard, Magic phase, Attack etc.), sometimes not (e.g. supporting attack). However, in either case, such terms are identified by the relevant rules. Otherwise, the game uses plain English.
As already pointed out above, the language in the BRB uses "to move" and "to be moved" as synonyms, meaning "to change position." That is not really surprising, because no unit in this game can move on its own: they consist of inanimate models that always need to be moved by the player. That is, in fact, consistent with the general usage. Here are some examples regarding "moving statues" (Italics mine):
We can safely assume that (miracles aside but that would have been noted), none of these statues moved on their own accord.
So, to recap: - You have no argument in the rules whatsoever - Your other arguments are either irrelevant or incorrect
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Post by anechrome on Feb 28, 2021 13:14:04 GMT
TLDR.
Generals compendium, page 139, shooting from a ship.
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