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Post by thezildo on Mar 6, 2021 19:18:15 GMT
Looking for confirmation on some shooting rules. If I read the book correctly, it says that you can shoot through troops with it counting as hard cover for the unit you are shooting at. I read that rule and I can think to myself, ‘OK, I guess that makes so sense for archers.’ But then I think about things like crossbows, guns and ,most recently, the dwarf organ gun and can’t help but think that this rule makes no sense for projectiles that are indebted to have a straight line trajectory as opposed to bows which are shot on an arc. I don’t know any of the errata or FAQ stuff very well so hoping someone with more knowledge could inform me on the topic. So the main questions are,
-if an unengaged unit of dwarf quarrelers (Shooter) has an unengaged unit of Dwarf longbeards (Obstruction) directly in between the enemy unit of High Elf Spearmen (Target) can the Quarrelers still shoot at the Spearmen even though their line of sight in completely blocked by the longbeards?
-Does this change at all if the target is Ogres/monstrous infantry instead of infantry?
-Does the answer change if the shooter is a Dwarf organ gun?
-Does the answer change if the unit of longbeards (obstruction) is engaged in combat with a different enemy unit than the target?
I believe large target means you lose the benefit of hard cover unless 50% of the model is obscured but nothing involved had that ruling. Maybe I am being too logical with thinking a bullet can’t shoot over allies and drop from the sky into enemies whenever I need them to. Thanks in advance for any input you all have to offer.
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Post by delflover5000 on Mar 6, 2021 22:14:04 GMT
You can't really apply real world logic to what the game rules are. It's just a tabletop simulation of a battle so there will thousands of things that do not truly make sense if you really think about them. - The game uses a true line of sight system so there could probably be a case made for the quarrellers being able to see between the gaps in the longbeards models. This is something you and your opponent will have to agree on but at the very least hard cover will apply. - Cover rules requires that 50% of the unit be obscured by the object which most infantry will do when compared to ogres, maybe dwarfs are too small  but I doubt it. - No, only difference is the line of sight is drawn from the barrel of the gun - No - Large target mean you do not get cover bonuses period, doesn't matter how much you're obscured Honestly true line of sight is kind of a vague/imperfect system but as always you can discuss this with your opponent and make compromises together. |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Mar 6, 2021 23:36:46 GMT
Basically, what delflover5000 says. BRB p. 10: "For one model to have line of sight to another, you must be able to trace an unblocked line from its eyes to any part of the body (i.e. the head, torso, arms or legs) of the target. Sometimes, all that will be visible of a model is a weapon, banner or other ornament he is carrying. In these cases, the model is not visible. Similarly, we ignore wings and tails, even though they are technically part of a model's body." If there is any doubt, the best way to determine LoS is the use of a laser pointer. On a more general note: fluff has no bearing on the rules, whatsoever. However, I myself am all for verisimilitude, and I will ensure firing lanes for my gunpowder weapons that have a straight ballistic trajectory. But that is a voluntary restriction, I would not and cannot fault anyone playing according RAW. |
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Post by rahotep75 on Mar 7, 2021 1:43:53 GMT
Just a small correction, Large Targets can not claim cover from obstacles (walls, fences, etc). If intervening units are large enough to obscure half of the Large Target then it would get appropriate cover. Same for woods or other terrain that specifically grants cover, without being an obstacle.
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Post by TyrrenAzureblade on Apr 5, 2021 23:57:56 GMT
Jumping in here with some questions since this seems like the thread most related to the Line of Sight rules that I'm trying to figure out for an upcoming game:
1. Let's say there's a single character behind Thanquol and Boneripper (The new large End Times model), and he's visible to a shooting unit between Boneripper's legs. Does that count as any kind of cover for the character behind Boneripper?
2. Some models have terrain built into the scuplt. For example: Queek Headtaker is on an elevated bit of terrain. If that model can see another unit over an intervening unit's heads, does Queek's unit have LoS to the unit behind the intervening unit? And vice versa?
3. The High Elf dragon has pretty large terrain feature on its model. Does that obstruct LoS to a character behind it, or do you ignore the terrain? Likewise, if you add rocks or other terrain to your models base, do those obstruct LoS?
It seems like the True Line of Sight rule is pretty troublesome for all these reasons and more, so any info you guys can share, that'd be great, including any interesting house rules you all have devised to help make all this less fiddly.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Apr 6, 2021 9:32:43 GMT
1. Since the majority of the target would be obscured by an intervening unit, this would count as hard cover and suffer -2 To Hit. 2. Depends. That would be, for instance, the case for declaring a charge, since only "one or more of the models in your unit must be able to trace a line of sight to the enemy unit" (BRB p. 16). It would not be the case for shooting, because every single "shooting model must be able to trace a line of sight to the target" (BRB p. 39). However, the model in the second rank behind Queek could use his LoS. 3. The HE terrain feature would block LoS, because it is official issue. However, conversions cannot be used to gain additional benefits - unless your opponent would agree to it, of course. So, no added benefit for something like this:  |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Apr 6, 2021 11:52:41 GMT
To add: the use of a laser pointer forestalls almost all LoS disputes.
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but I doubt it.
