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Post by KevinC on Apr 11, 2021 22:20:51 GMT
It has been a while since I've updated the Bretonnia Playtest list. I haven't been happy with it and so decided to make some major changes, and went back to envision the army more like the 5th edition Bretonnian army book.
Here is a brief recap of changes:
1. I've brought back the original wedge formation of The Lance. I tried to make this formation very potent as the same time as having weakness to exploit it.
2. The Lady's Blessing is protects against shootings attacks by making the enemy shooters first roll a 4+ to fire. And the Bretonnians may not pray if their own army includes war machines.
3. Questing Knights are back with there own unit entry and special rules.
4. The army's core must be made up of Knights (there are three core choices), a nod back to the original army book where 25% of the army must be Knight units.
5. There are a few more special characters, including 3 different Kings that allow a player to play the army in a different way.
Most of the major changes have been highlighted in magenta, but not all changes are.
Pleas post any comments here and if you are able to play test this list please share your results and experiences here. Thank you!
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Post by avatarofbugman on Nov 17, 2021 15:33:47 GMT
Kevin,
Here are some notes I have after having used the new list:
Overall, I like the feel of this list. However, if we are going back to wedge I feel you could just keep the 8th edition formation rules and get rid of any weird no flanks and reform when charged rules.
The Lady's Boon really should ditch the MR and give the Ward Saves back. As it stands, a lot of cc attacks with gw exist in the game. I have seen Dwarfs and Ogres with GW destroy a knight unit, even when the knights charge, due to a loss of any real save and no back up. Restoring the 6+(5+ vs S5+) would be proper.
Leon Leoncouer should really have an 18" range for Ld. This feels like how he is to his people.
Mallobaude really should have all rules and units related to him put to the back. It is actually disruptive where it is, as it is a separate armor list in a way.
I think peasants duty should return for the bowmen and squires. It allows them to stay around more and you should also put bowmen into core. Robbing special points for bowmen almost makes them a non-include.
Finally, The Green Knight is really a no-take as he stands. I see you reduced his points, but 175 points with highly variable attack number, 1 wound, even with a 2+ regen, does not stand up to any real amount of cc attacks. In reality, I feel he needed the least amount of work.
This is just what I have recorded over time.
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Post by KevinC on Nov 17, 2021 19:29:57 GMT
Jason,
Thank you for this feedback. Good points, two follow ups...
No flanks in lance formation - With only one model in the front rank, the unit's front arc becomes smaller. If we count the sides as flanks, this means a knight unit in lance formation will have large flank arcs. Perhaps this could be part of the disadvantage, but as a Bret player, wouldn't you be annoyed if an otherwise usual front charge was allowed to charge your flank? And remember in 8th, charge ranges are longer - the average charge range for a model with Movement 4 is 11" rather than the old 8". What are your thoughts?
Also, in the final campaign battle, there was something weird that came up with a counter charge....what was that?
Commoners as special - The reason why I made commoners special is because I wanted the 25% CORE to be all Knights for Bretonnia armies, that how it was back in 5th edition and since the army is focused on the Knights I feel this should be so. However, what if commoners were core but do not count toward the minimum 25% core?
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Post by KevinC on Nov 17, 2021 19:33:43 GMT
Oh and regarding the peasants duty...since the Bretonnian army is suppose to be about Knights, the special rules of the army should really focus on Knights and not commoners. In a Knight based army, it seems that commoners don't need their own special rules...
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Post by avatarofbugman on Nov 17, 2021 21:45:29 GMT
I was thinking of having the three wide formation from 8th, including that three across counts as a rank, and combine that with your no-flank concept. It would read something like "A unit of knights in lance formation count as having no flanks if unengaged, as the formation allows for flexibility in meeting a threat. If such a unit is charged from the side it will simply reform, as per the combat reform rules, to face the enemy. An engaged unit in the lance formation lacks this flexibility, and therefore counts as having flanks."
I see what you attempted for the commoners. Seeing the rationale, I think I understand. I didn't catch that at first. I still think the idea that they can be "lead" by any knight unit is very thematic and shows their reverence for all knights. This may be a case, however, where I'm looking too much at theme instead of gameplay.
As for the campaign, there was no counter-charge that came up. I think Boda thought Sigvald had it, but that's the best that I can remember.
One final thought that I just saw in my notes. The knights, in a lance, are more restricted in targeting attacks against champions and characters than the unit being charged attacking back. This seems to actually punish charging in as written. I understand not wanting a whole unit of knights to target all their attacks on Thorgrim Grudgebearer, for instance, but since other armies would have three front rank and three second rank models capable of attacking the dwarf king, the knights should have the same basic capability incorporated into their rules. Maybe write it so that a maximum of four models can direct their attacks at any one character or unit champion, or wording to that effect.
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Post by KevinC on Nov 17, 2021 22:23:33 GMT
I was thinking of having the three wide formation from 8th, including that three across counts as a rank, and combine that with your no-flank concept. It would read something like "A unit of knights in lance formation count as having no flanks if unengaged, as the formation allows for flexibility in meeting a threat. If such a unit is charged from the side it will simply reform, as per the combat reform rules, to face the enemy. An engaged unit in the lance formation lacks this flexibility, and therefore counts as having flanks." I see what you attempted for the commoners. Seeing the rationale, I think I understand. I didn't catch that at first. I still think the idea that they can be "lead" by any knight unit is very thematic and shows their reverence for all knights. This may be a case, however, where I'm looking too much at theme instead of gameplay. As for the campaign, there was no counter-charge that came up. I think Boda thought Sigvald had it, but that's the best that I can remember. One final thought that I just saw in my notes. The knights, in a lance, are more restricted in targeting attacks against champions and characters than the unit being charged attacking back. This seems to actually punish charging in as written. I understand not wanting a whole unit of knights to target all their attacks on Thorgrim Grudgebearer, for instance, but since other armies would have three front rank and three second rank models capable of attacking the dwarf king, the knights should have the same basic capability incorporated into their rules. Maybe write it so that a maximum of four models can direct their attacks at any one character or unit champion, or wording to that effect. ----------I see what your saying about the Lance. But I am really trying to make the original wedge formation work. It's iconic to the Brets, I think the 3-wide 'bus' never looked right. Regarding flanking in combat, remember if the Knight get charged into the side they must reform into a standard formation, I should write it if this happens when they are engaged they get charged in the flank...? Regarding character/champions, what if I change it to this: "Up to half (rounding up) of the enemy models in the front rank may designate attacks against the unit champion and/or any characters in the Lance and up to half (rounding up) of the models from the charging Lance may target enemy unit champions and/or characters in the enemy’s front rank. |
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Post by KevinC on Nov 17, 2021 22:29:02 GMT
I see what you attempted for the commoners. Seeing the rationale, I think I understand. I didn't catch that at first. I still think the idea that they can be "lead" by any knight unit is very thematic and shows their reverence for all knights. This may be a case, however, where I'm looking too much at theme instead of gameplay. --------Are you good with bowmen and Men-at-arms as special then? Or you think they should be core units that don't count to the min. amount of core unit requirements? I feel like keeping them special is cleaner...I don't think the ordinary player is interested in more than 3 units of men-at-arms or bowmen, and since special can be 50% of the army, I don't see them causing a points issue amongst special units.... |
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Post by KevinC on Nov 17, 2021 22:45:43 GMT
Leon Leoncouer should really have an 18" range for Ld. This feels like how he is to his people. ----------This is already so because he is riding a Large Target. |
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Post by avatarofbugman on Nov 17, 2021 23:11:35 GMT
The issue with the wedge is that it makes managing it cumbersome, and maneuvering for game play is frustrating.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Nov 17, 2021 23:13:33 GMT
Keep the commoners as specials, and I forgot about the large target rule for leadership.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Nov 17, 2021 23:15:58 GMT
As for the charge in the flank, I was suggesting how to deal with it while keeping the 8th bus formation.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Nov 17, 2021 23:18:18 GMT
The issue, like the commoner issue I had, is going for theme in a manner that interferes with playability. The wedge looks cool, but I don't want to have to mess around with making a movement tray for it, and then have to take everything off of that tray to deal with not breaking the enemy in combat or getting charged in the flank, and then going back to the Lance after.
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Post by KevinC on Nov 18, 2021 0:30:24 GMT
The issue, like the commoner issue I had, is going for theme in a manner that interferes with playability. The wedge looks cool, but I don't want to have to mess around with making a movement tray for it, and then have to take everything off of that tray to deal with not breaking the enemy in combat or getting charged in the flank, and then going back to the Lance after. -----------Ah! Very good point. What if, I modify the wedge formation so that they don't loose it (unless the player wants to reform). So they stay in the formation... |
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Post by avatarofbugman on Nov 18, 2021 0:54:00 GMT
That works. Maybe write something that states that the Lance has a front width equal to the width of the last rank and a flank width equal to the number of ranks.
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Post by KevinC on Nov 18, 2021 1:17:06 GMT
That works. Maybe write something that states that the Lance has a front width equal to the width of the last rank and a flank width equal to the number of ranks. -----------I like this suggestion. But before I even attempt that. What about this: THE LANCE
When the armies of Grand Bretonnia marshal for war, the Knights organize into a huge, armour-glittering, wedge-shaped battalions called the Lance – the favored battle formation of the Knights of Bretonnia. When the Lance charges into its foes the Bretonnian Knights strike true, bursting enemy formations asunder and scattering entire regiments into a full rout.
A unit in the Lance is formed into a pointed wedge formation, with one Knight in the first rank (this model is called the Lead Knight), two Knights in the second rank, three Knights in the third rank, four Knights in the forth rank, and so on. All cavalry models with the Knightly Chivalry special rule in the Lance gain the Devestating Charge special rule. Unless otherwise noted below, a unit in the Lance functions in the same way as other rank-and-file cavalry units. Forming the LanceA Bretonnian unit consists of 3 or more models and that is entirely comprised of cavalry models with the Knightly Chivalry special rule, may be deployed in the Lance at the start of the game or may adopt the Lance formation during the game by performing a reform. The unit champion will be the Lead Knight. If the unit includes any characters, a character will be the Lead Knight and the unit champion will be placed in the second rank. If a unit in the Lance is joined by one or more characters, command group models may be placed in the second or third rank and will still provide their usual bonuses as if they were in the front rank, though they must be placed as close as possible to the Lead Knight. When reforming into the Lance, leave the Lead Knight where it is, though the model may pivot to face any direction. Then rearrange the remaining Knights behind the Lead Knight. If the Knight unit reforms into a standard formation, they reform in the same manner by rearranging and forming up around the Lead Knight and otherwise following the rules for reforming. If the unit does not include a character and the unit champion has been slain, any Knight model may become the Lead Knight. However, command group models (i.e. standard bearers and musicians) will become the Lead Knight before other rank-and-file Knights. If the Lance unit contains 5 of more rank-and-file Knights, the Lead Knight is granted a “Look Out Sir!” roll if the unit is struck by a Bolt Thrower or a weapon/spell that hits in a similar manner as a Bolt Thrower (such as the Amber Spear spell from the Lore of Beasts). Moving the LanceLine of sight for a unit in the Lance is always and only determined by the Lead Knight in the front rank. All standard movement is measured from the Lead Knight. However, when wheeling with the Lance, measure from appropriate corner model of the widest rank. A unit in the Lance has a forward, flank and rear arc as normal. However due to the unusual wedge-shape of the unit, the flank arc is determined as follows. A unit that is outside of both the Lance unit’s forward and rear arc is considered in the Lance’s flank arc. Enemy units may not approach within 2” of a unit in the Lance formation, rather than the usual 1”, unless the enemy unit is charging. The Lance in Combat
When a unit in Lance formation is engaged in combat with an enemy unit to their front, all models in the unit (including their steeds) attack as normal – as though each individual cavalry model were in base-to-base contact with an enemy model. Enemy units attacking a unit in the Lance formation from their front will attack with their entire first rank, exactly as if each model in the front rank were in base contact (along with any supporting attacks they may have). Up to half (rounding up) of the enemy models in the front rank may designate attacks against the unit champion and/or any characters in the Lance, while only models in the first two ranks of the Lance unit may target enemy unit champions and/or characters in the enemy’s front rank. If a unit in Lance formation is charged along the sides of the wedge, it is considered a flank charge. Note, this means a weakness of the Lance formation is that units in the Lance have larger, and thus more vulnerable, flanks than most standard units. If a unit in the Lance is charged in their flank or rear, or is otherwise fighting in their flank or rear, only models in base contact fight rather than the entire unit. A unit in the Lance counts rank bonuses as normal – they must have at least 5 models in a rank to receive a combat result bonus for having extra ranks (i.e. a unit of 15 Knights in the Lance formation will have +1 combat result from the five models in its fifth rank). A unit in the Lance formation may not assault a building. The unit must first adopt a standard formation in order to charge a building. |
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