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Post by eekenator on May 21, 2021 6:10:08 GMT
Hi everyone!
While I do have five armies on my collection, my most used match-up in history has been playing Dark Elves against Vampire Counts. I have lost most of those games, easily 50+ times during the years. I eventually got dispirited with the Druchii - which were my first army - and got into new directions, but after a break of a couple of years I'm back with more spirit and willing to find a way to keep the Undead dead. I would love to hear list-building tips or strategies that have worked for other players with this match-up.
I should probably note that I do not have Witch Elves / Cauldron -combination in my collection, as I have never felt any interest in playing them. I would say my collection is about 3,500 pts, so in a standard game of 2,500 pts I should be able to find ways with a good build...I'm also willing to paint some (moderate) additions to my already once "finished" army it it helps with the competitiveness of the army. I've had enough of losing with the Elves.
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Post by delflover5000 on May 21, 2021 9:56:38 GMT
So what is it you've been having trouble dealing with? VC have a variety of threats so I'm not sure there is a fully fixed answer to this.
Personally I think the witch death star is overrated as what you gain in brute strength you lose from tactical ineptness, Hellebron can cover some of the cracks though. Units of 14 7x2 perform better for me as they're cheap enough to be expendable, make short work of tarpits and can shred low armour monsters. They don't need to win their fights just let them do as much damage as possible. Executioners will work against anything the witch elves don't, their Vampire lord should be trying to avoid them at all cost or killing blow may just end the game.
Ethereal units can be difficult for us so having cheap Masters with magic weapons to support units can be key. Doombolt is an expensive spell to kill a spirit host with but it may be necessary.
Dark Magic is fairly strong here with bladewind you can chew through their infantry + Doombolt/Word of pain are just generically strong. Death magic can be brutal here, if they move outside the general bubble spirit leech can 1 shot a lot of their monsters. They can't just ignore the character sniping spells either but they can heal their characters.
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Post by vulcan on May 21, 2021 13:00:41 GMT
Don't sell Witches short against VC. Mangling core troops is what they're best at, and a big unit of them can chew through zombies (through kills and combat res) way faster than they can be raised unless he dedicates all his magic to it... in which case he's not doing anything ELSE with his magic. Even a small unit will do damage all out of proportion to their numbers while they're still around.
Yeah, getting a big unit of Executioners into base contact with the VC general usually ends the game there and then. Don't accept challenges; let the rank and file bury him in killing blows. Eventually he'll fail a ward save and that's that. However the other player knows that too, and don't expect him to let you do it more than once.
Sometimes the simplest answer is the best. Death magic snipe the general at every opportunity. May not be very sporting, but neither is putting a DE combat character up against a Blender Vampire Lord.
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Post by knoffles on May 22, 2021 9:09:41 GMT
Can you give us an idea of what options you have and what you struggle with specifically (or what your opponent likes to take?). Very few of us tailor lists here but it should allow us to perhaps give more detailed pointers.
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Post by eekenator on May 22, 2021 14:46:50 GMT
Sometimes the simplest answer is the best. Death magic snipe the general at every opportunity. May not be very sporting, but neither is putting a DE combat character up against a Blender Vampire Lord. This is pretty much what I've been thinking recently. DE doesn't have combat characters that are an equal match to Vampire Lords, and Wight King's Killing Blow is a very annoying threat for combat characters as well. Honestly, I've had trouble with the match-up overall. The mentioned special characters are something that we have never used in my gaming group, as we just generally dislike the idea of them - so they will not be my solution. The general problem is that whatever damage I deal, the rate of Invocation is just too much to keep up with. I have been very rarely able to kill the Vampire Lord, thus the General and the single most valuable kill has been out of my reach. The expensive units - Grave Guard and Crypt Horrors for example - have been hard to kill because of the Invocation. Level 4 Vampire with Mortis Engine buffed with a couple of Necromancers means that even with Supreme Sorc + Sorc and / or Warlocks I don't have the edge in magic. In many games, I've been able to reduce the key units to a marginal number of the starting amount, but it doesn't matter as long as I can't decimate them completely. In short, how to deal with magic-heavy VC list? I find Mortis Engine, Black Coach (if and when it siphons quickly), Spirit Hosts and Wight Kings especially troublesome. As for my painted collection: 40x Dreadspears 30x Darkshards 20x Black Guard 13x Executioners 10x Cold One Knights 8x Dark Riders 5x Doomfire Warlocks Cold One Chariot War Hydra 3x Reaper Bolt Thrower Dreadlord, mounted (Black Dragon) Dreadlord / Master with BSB, mounted (Cold One) Supreme Sorceress Sorceress Assassin Dreadlord / Master Dreadlord / Master with BSB I'll be adding a Pegasus Master for versatility.
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Post by KevinC on May 22, 2021 14:53:35 GMT
Dark Elf Corsairs are a bit underrated. They dish out a lot of attacks AND have a 4+ armour save. They can chew through Undead pretty well and have a good save at any attacks coming back at them.
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Post by vulcan on May 23, 2021 1:05:50 GMT
DOH! How could I have forgotten Corsairs! They won't chew through zombies and skellies quite as fast, but they'll last longer.
Another possibility is large amounts of repeater crossbow and Reaper Bolt Thrower fire. Small to mid-sized units of Darkshards, small units of Dark Riders with crossbows, and even Shades. VC has little range attacks available, so sometimes avoidance, maneuver, and a hail of fire can allow you to win on points depending on what he fields.
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Post by oldmandan on May 24, 2021 10:51:33 GMT
I think I see the issue here. VC are very magic heavy which from the sounds of things is what is making your life difficult, so my first suggestion would be to balance this out and nullify (not compete) with some of the magic. I would use Assassins or two small units of dark riders to take out the lower level wizards in the army. My next suggestion is combat and changing up your units. As Vulcan mentioned a small unit of Witch elves supporting a unit of Blackguards or executioners could tip the scales in your favour. When facing VC I always take a combat based character to deal with enemy characters, so dropping the dragon and really tooling up an extra hero might give you an edge.
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Post by vulcan on May 27, 2021 3:39:10 GMT
Shades deployed to charge into units with low-end wizards also work well. 2x3 can deliver all their attacks straight onto said wizard. If said wizard is in a block of troops on the front line, small units of witches can also be effective wizard-killers. Don't put champions in these units to avoid challenge shenanigans.
And yes, any and all anti-magic effects you can shoehorn into your army will help.
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Post by eekenator on May 30, 2021 15:17:03 GMT
Thanks everyone for your contributions. Valuable tips. Reflecting my previous games and your advice, my focus should go into two or three primary goals:
1a) Kill the Lord / wizards 1b) and/or counter magic 2) Use fast heavy-hitters to destroy (expensive) units faster than the resurrection rate of Invocation 3) Possible combat character
This would mean: 1a) Death magic with maneuverable Sorc 1b) Anti-magic items 2) Additional infantry unit to deal damage 3) Better tooling for combat character
In addition, the possibility to play shooting-heavy is viable, although I'm skeptical about how well it will work. I have tried it before, although as a far less experienced player. Assassin is very risky points-wise, if it fails to kill a high-caliber character it just costs me more than it is worth. That is what usually happens. About the mentioned Black Dragon: I don't usually use it against VC anyway.
The options 1a) and 2) mean some paint work ahead. Is there any model that could be used as a mounted Sorceress? I can't remember there would be a GW model for Delf Sorc with a steed. All the mentioned units - Witch Elves, Corsairs, Executioners, Shades - are something I need to add to my collection. I have some old Shades luckily lying around, but I'll need to buy Corsairs / WE. Luckily again, they are still available. A big block of Executioners seems like an investment I'll pass (expensive and time-consuming + ugly as sin models), but otherwise, it seems I'll be busy painting this summer.
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Post by delflover5000 on May 30, 2021 18:14:02 GMT
eekenator Easiest way to make a mounted sorceress is to use the one from the black dragon kit and a spare steed from the chariot kit. I usually bunker mine with 9 dark riders or maybe doomfire warlocks so you may want to add a few more of them to your collection. You can also use the Morathi model if you want to use a dark pegasus instead. Based on what you have I wouldn't recommend using cold one knights against VC, they suck against 90% of the units in this matchup.
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Post by vulcan on May 31, 2021 2:20:17 GMT
And always bear in mind a DE combat character is almost certain to die to a Blender Vampire Lord; don't try it.
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Post by sedge on Jun 4, 2021 12:37:28 GMT
And always bear in mind a DE combat character is almost certain to die to a Blender Vampire Lord; don't try it. Hellebron will destroy one though, and at 310 points is a worthwhile sacrifice (if you end up against a Quickblood - ASF - one) as most blender Vamps are well above that. Just avoid one with the Nightshroud, as that neuters her Strength 10 and ASF.
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Post by vulcan on Jun 5, 2021 2:48:32 GMT
And always bear in mind a DE combat character is almost certain to die to a Blender Vampire Lord; don't try it. Hellebron will destroy one though, and at 310 points is a worthwhile sacrifice (if you end up against a Quickblood - ASF - one) as most blender Vamps are well above that. Just avoid one with the Nightshroud, as that neuters her Strength 10 and ASF. Thus, almost certain.
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Post by tucker on Jun 6, 2021 14:13:39 GMT
Timing is the key to defeating a vampire leading a unit of infantry. If you charge in while the unit is at full strength, the skeletons (or whatever) will absorb all of your attacks and the vampire will slaughter your elves. If you go in after you've blasted the unit to pieces there won't be enough skeletons left for you to kill and gain combat resolution, so the vampire will slaughter your elves. A lone vampire is, paradoxically, more dangerous than one in a small unit, as most elves won't be able to hurt it and so cannot build up enough combat resolution to kill it.
The ideal number of skeletons is five to ten -- enough that you can wipe out the unit in a round and the overkill will make the vampire crumble as well. Try to focus your shooting and magic on that key unit, whittling it down to a manageable size before charging in with your troops.
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