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Post by KevinC on Jul 5, 2021 17:15:49 GMT
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Post by Sweet_Totally on Jul 5, 2021 20:18:50 GMT
I'm not sure about giving the monster S6. I'd rather give it S5 but access to an especially powerful vomit attack that does D3+1 automatic hits.
I'd also change the troll-snatcha from having Heroic Killing Blow to, if the weapon scores a hit, the target must pass an initiative test or be automatically hit by attacks from any source. At the start of each following combat round the target must make a new initiative test to see if it manages to break free. If the roll is failed the target suffers one wound (which can be negated by a succesful armour save, non-parry based wardsave or regen) and continues to be automatically hit. If the roll is succesful then the target has broken free and attacks directed at it must hit as usual.
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Post by KevinC on Jul 6, 2021 12:35:45 GMT
I kept going back on S5 or S6. One reason I went with S6 is because standard Trolls are S5 and this thing is not only much larger but its limbs seem like it should be S6. I might take it down to 5. I also want to avoid making rules for a monster that players find a waste (It's easy to make a monster too good or too weak, so trying to find that perfect balance). For example, already the monster has stupidity with LD6 (though he can reroll it) and T5 & W5 is not the best monster profile (though he does have regeneration). Even so, S5 may be appropriate.
The vomit attack is a great idea, it should have some type of Vomit attack. I do think adding the vomit attacks and reducing the S to 5 is a good balance. The vomit attack might be more appropriate in the form of a breath weapon.
I like have the Troll-snatcha with Heroic Killing Blow, because it's a long shot but still a considerable threat. It's 1 Attack, Striking at I2 with a WS 2. Even if it Hits, it then needs to roll a 6. It works in conjunction with the Troll-grabba, because if the grabba hits, it allows the snatcha to hit on a 3+. I think in combination, it makes the two Goblin special weapons both useful, effective and potentially game changing...though certainly not reliable. All which makes sense for gobbos. It's also akin to having one extra deadly attack on the monster, such as the venom surge on an Archanarok Spider, etc.
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Post by Sweet_Totally on Jul 6, 2021 15:08:08 GMT
Some sound reasoning there. I like your thinking regarding the Heroic Killing Blow. I think that you have me convinced.
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Post by mottdon on Jul 6, 2021 20:54:28 GMT
I think that the S5 option sounds better to me. O&G already have access to several high strength, Rare slot choices (Giants, A-rock, Giant Cave Squigs...) so it'd be nice to see a Rare choice that isn't all THAT strong, but still reliably killy. Besides, when you factor in that it's got a T5, 4+, AND Regen going for it, this thing is starting to show a LOT of resilience for a big monster. You typically see lower strengths associated with that much defense. The price point of 200 means you are choosing between this and a Giant. Giants = killy, this should be the defensive option.
I personally like the idea of the Vomit attack in addition. It's very thematic, and there has to be SOME reason they're riding a Troll over an A-rock.
I'm still a little on the fence about the HKB. That's only seen VERY rarely. Like the sky parts, beams of light from heaven come down and illuminate the greatest champion of the age as he heroically makes a death-defying leap into the jaws of death to make that beyond-all-odds strike to vanquish a seemingly invincible foe. THAT's what HKB is reserved for in my mind. Thematically anyway. Not a pair of normal Goblin-monkeys on a Troll's back. I get what you're trying to do though.
I think those two options should also come as a cost upgrade. 20 for one, 10 for the other. Base War Sloggoth comes with Netters. There's even a model option for that according to the pics.
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Post by KevinC on Jul 7, 2021 2:00:50 GMT
More support for S5, I totally get it.
Regarding heroic killing blow...what if the troll-snatcher cause D6 wounds instead? Or even D3 wounds? Thoughts on that?
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Post by mottdon on Jul 7, 2021 11:29:58 GMT
More support for S5, I totally get it. Regarding heroic killing blow...what if the troll-snatcher cause D6 wounds instead? Or even D3 wounds? Thoughts on that? My first inclination would be toward D3? D6 is a monster hunter for sure. Depends on what role he's trying to fill, I suppose. I definitely like those options much better though. If you think about it, say, on the off chance he connects and rolls up 6 wounds with it. Most monsters are dead at this point. But say it's something with 8 wounds. Now here comes Troll Vomit and 4 S5 attacks. Pretty high chance that's a dead monster. Even if it isn't, it's now stuck in combat with a very hard to kill monster....that only costs 200 points? That seems like a no-brainer option. Why wouldn't you bring 2-3+ of these in every game?!? Bye-bye Star Dragon! Now, of course, that's worst-case-scenario, but the potential is there. Maybe that's the incentive. Sounds like some good play testing is in order, though! 😁
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Post by KevinC on Jul 7, 2021 18:46:15 GMT
More support for S5, I totally get it. Regarding heroic killing blow...what if the troll-snatcher cause D6 wounds instead? Or even D3 wounds? Thoughts on that? My first inclination would be toward D3? D6 is a monster hunter for sure. Depends on what role he's trying to fill, I suppose. I definitely like those options much better though. If you think about it, say, on the off chance he connects and rolls up 6 wounds with it. Most monsters are dead at this point. But say it's something with 8 wounds. Now here comes Troll Vomit and 4 S5 attacks. Pretty high chance that's a dead monster. Even if it isn't, it's now stuck in combat with a very hard to kill monster....that only costs 200 points? That seems like a no-brainer option. Why wouldn't you bring 2-3+ of these in every game?!? Bye-bye Star Dragon! Now, of course, that's worst-case-scenario, but the potential is there. Maybe that's the incentive. Sounds like some good play testing is in order, though! 😁 ------------I see you points...But, I think that becomes dangerous territory assuming the best case scenario. At the end of the day, the Sloggoth has stupidity on LD 6, and even with regeneration, its not extremely difficult to kill. The chance of the killing blow/multiple wounds on another monster would be rare. And if a player is so concerned about that, don't send in a monster. I play an arachnarok spider a lot and it's pretty rare for to kill something important with its venom surge. I think GW overpriced some monsters with this line of thought and its also why playtesting is important, because how often are star dragons and greater daemons actually getting killed by this thing?
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Post by mottdon on Jul 7, 2021 19:02:57 GMT
Yeah, you're probably right. Just throwing out points of consideration. One good fireball or breath weapon and it'll be hurting.
This sounds fun though!
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Post by KevinC on Jul 7, 2021 20:57:00 GMT
Yeah, you're probably right. Just throwing out points of consideration. One good fireball or breath weapon and it'll be hurting. This sounds fun though! -----------I appreciate your comments, so please keep letting me know...
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Post by KevinC on Jul 9, 2021 10:18:24 GMT
I’m going to update these rules once I actually see the model in person. FYI
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Post by sedge on Jul 25, 2021 12:37:29 GMT
I share the doubts about HKB. There's deliberately barely anything in WFB with that rule, as it's so ridiculously good - plus such a terrifying prospect that it can have a massive impact on how your opponent plays, even if it's unlikely to take effect. The weapon also just doesn't look like it's HWB level of amazingness. I'd be tempted to give both snatcha and grabba the same rules, increasing the chances of having one take effect. Or one reduces WS and the other reduces Attacks by 1.
The 4+ armour save doesn't seem to be reflected in the model - it's an unarmoured troll, and the platform is barely waist-high to the gobbos. The regen save is already a big thing - I'd suggest armour save is more likely to be 6+ or at most 5+.
I like the rules for the drum. What about a cumulative upgrade for when it successfully kills a monster/character in combat (e.g. an additional -1 Ld from the drums)? Displaying those heads on your trophy rack is bound to make it even more terrifying. That also helps to fix its role in place as a character/monster killer that debuffs nearby units.
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Post by KevinC on Jul 30, 2021 11:35:34 GMT
I share the doubts about HKB. There's deliberately barely anything in WFB with that rule, as it's so ridiculously good - plus such a terrifying prospect that it can have a massive impact on how your opponent plays, even if it's unlikely to take effect. The weapon also just doesn't look like it's HWB level of amazingness. I'd be tempted to give both snatcha and grabba the same rules, increasing the chances of having one take effect. Or one reduces WS and the other reduces Attacks by 1. The 4+ armour save doesn't seem to be reflected in the model - it's an unarmoured troll, and the platform is barely waist-high to the gobbos. The regen save is already a big thing - I'd suggest armour save is more likely to be 6+ or at most 5+. I like the rules for the drum. What about a cumulative upgrade for when it successfully kills a monster/character in combat (e.g. an additional -1 Ld from the drums)? Displaying those heads on your trophy rack is bound to make it even more terrifying. That also helps to fix its role in place as a character/monster killer that debuffs nearby units. -----------Good points. I am going to be modifying the War Sloggoth soon. Was waiting to see the model in person (whenever that will be), but maybe I'll update this before that. Regarding HKB, I see you points. Though, I think this is a way to bring it in fairly. 1. It's not a surprise, the opponent will know it's there - unlike say a magic item. 2. It's only one attack, and at WS2, I2. 3. I see HKB being appropriate on things like man-catchers where the weapon grabs you by the neck and crunches. 4. Finally I wouldnt say its ridiculously good here. You can merely have your monster avoid the Sloggoth. Regardless I'm looking to change that to probably Multiple Wounds (D3). I think you're right about the armour save. Thanks for the feedback.
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Post by KevinC on Aug 17, 2021 13:55:03 GMT
I was going to wait for the model to come out before I updated this, but who knows when that is?? Changes are in red. Thanks for the feedback.
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pinge
New Member
Posts: 47
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Post by pinge on Aug 17, 2021 16:07:54 GMT
Dont get me wrong now, I like fluffy models with fun combat abilities, so I am asking out of interest, but isnt this model rather weak? 4 S5 W3 attacks and 3 S3 W2 attacks with 6+ AS and regeneration. If upgraded you get: 4 S5 W3 attacks and 1 S3 W2 attack + potentially W1 for the enemy and multiple wounds (D3+1) with 6 AS and regeneration. Is it good against monsters or infantry? Its got Swiftstrider but also Stupidity (and only 6LD). I find the rules great and appropiate but just wanted to your opinion (you = EEFL )
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