Post by 1plussave on Jul 23, 2021 21:57:39 GMT
A strategy I'm currently interested in is trying 2-3 units of 12 Crossbowmen in core, either adding them as detachments to a bigger block to reduce my number of drops or taking them solo and vanilla to increase the drops. I've tried to find a good way to use State Troop shooting and Crossbows seem to be one way to almost make it work.
Currently I'm drawn to the 30" range, I've found during deployment it keeps me out of range of enemy black powder and bow equivalents and basic ranged magic retaliation while still being able to cover areas inside the enemy deployment zone. They match the range of Elven longbows and Brettonian peasant longbows but need to rely on their S4 to overcome the lower hit chance compared to the former and the ability to move and fire from either. They definitely lose against either of the others without cover or a numbers advantage. They seem to pace Darkshards if they start out of their range and trade points wise with Dwarfen crossbows.
With 12 models in individual units they seems to hit reliably enough to put wounds into the traditional 4+ save (and 6++ with wild riders) of certain common fast cavalry units while having a big zone of fire to force them to either take it or go round the long way. With the 30" range they can make flanks a tough choice if theres low cover potential.
Mathhammer wise they don't seem to be as reliable as my estimates though, their increased cost from last edition combined with an absolute dearth of shooting support if you aren't tailoring your magic means that in a poor matchup they stay poor. I wonder if I'm looking at them from the view of someone who has to deal with too much 30" armour piercing bull and making poor choices based on threat range vs actual threat. They are playing rocket tag with skirmishers who can stay out of 15" short range but force Skink Skirmishers with blow pipes to engage within my short range. Cost wise they are too close to 5 man knightly order units who play as super heavy chaff, the points difference (110 vs 108) and comparing the threats they can handle does matter; the knights can harry enemy skirmishers and push up on ranged blocks but are outmaneuvered by fast cav and can't really threaten enough area to ward off things like Wild Riders. In my current lists and goal of less than 10 points over minimum core the three units I want and the Halberdier block of 40 with 5 Archers hedges out space for the Knights, though I'm currently scaling it back to two crossbow units of 12 and one unit of 5 knights for flexibility.
Ideally I'm running a Level 4 Shadow and a Level 2 Heavens for some flexibility in my casting, I have more shooting in the form of Engineer supported Mortars and Helblasters with paired Outrider units to really make the most of enemy units with lowered movement and toughness. Though I know I should probably be focusing all in on Shadow.
In a tournament context I'm thinking they end up as either there to play counter to chaff and fast cav or as bait for the inevitable flying flanker. They have a decent output vs low save infantry and cav though probably not enough to whittle down hordes of things. They cost low enough that I don't care if they sit there drawing aggro from anything fast that costs more than they do looking for something to overrun in the backline. I'm wondering if they will just be dead weight vs the T4 armies or undead.
Any thoughts on tactics? Are they always going to just be dead weight in any list in any competitive context? Their ideal scenario is denying safe or ideal placement for fast cav and flankers or getting their damage in against lower range shooters if someone risks it. Anything shooting back at them will hurt but any fire they attract away from war machines or more expensive shooting units is worth it.
Currently I'm drawn to the 30" range, I've found during deployment it keeps me out of range of enemy black powder and bow equivalents and basic ranged magic retaliation while still being able to cover areas inside the enemy deployment zone. They match the range of Elven longbows and Brettonian peasant longbows but need to rely on their S4 to overcome the lower hit chance compared to the former and the ability to move and fire from either. They definitely lose against either of the others without cover or a numbers advantage. They seem to pace Darkshards if they start out of their range and trade points wise with Dwarfen crossbows.
With 12 models in individual units they seems to hit reliably enough to put wounds into the traditional 4+ save (and 6++ with wild riders) of certain common fast cavalry units while having a big zone of fire to force them to either take it or go round the long way. With the 30" range they can make flanks a tough choice if theres low cover potential.
Mathhammer wise they don't seem to be as reliable as my estimates though, their increased cost from last edition combined with an absolute dearth of shooting support if you aren't tailoring your magic means that in a poor matchup they stay poor. I wonder if I'm looking at them from the view of someone who has to deal with too much 30" armour piercing bull and making poor choices based on threat range vs actual threat. They are playing rocket tag with skirmishers who can stay out of 15" short range but force Skink Skirmishers with blow pipes to engage within my short range. Cost wise they are too close to 5 man knightly order units who play as super heavy chaff, the points difference (110 vs 108) and comparing the threats they can handle does matter; the knights can harry enemy skirmishers and push up on ranged blocks but are outmaneuvered by fast cav and can't really threaten enough area to ward off things like Wild Riders. In my current lists and goal of less than 10 points over minimum core the three units I want and the Halberdier block of 40 with 5 Archers hedges out space for the Knights, though I'm currently scaling it back to two crossbow units of 12 and one unit of 5 knights for flexibility.
Ideally I'm running a Level 4 Shadow and a Level 2 Heavens for some flexibility in my casting, I have more shooting in the form of Engineer supported Mortars and Helblasters with paired Outrider units to really make the most of enemy units with lowered movement and toughness. Though I know I should probably be focusing all in on Shadow.
In a tournament context I'm thinking they end up as either there to play counter to chaff and fast cav or as bait for the inevitable flying flanker. They have a decent output vs low save infantry and cav though probably not enough to whittle down hordes of things. They cost low enough that I don't care if they sit there drawing aggro from anything fast that costs more than they do looking for something to overrun in the backline. I'm wondering if they will just be dead weight vs the T4 armies or undead.
Any thoughts on tactics? Are they always going to just be dead weight in any list in any competitive context? Their ideal scenario is denying safe or ideal placement for fast cav and flankers or getting their damage in against lower range shooters if someone risks it. Anything shooting back at them will hurt but any fire they attract away from war machines or more expensive shooting units is worth it.