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Post by gnoblar3 on Aug 6, 2021 13:58:10 GMT
The Orc unit was passed over by a magical vortex causing 25% casualties. Did we play this right by pivoting the orcs so they flee directly way from the vortex finishing point or could they just have fled straight forwards? The way we played it, the base of one model ended up about 1/4 over the table edge. Whole unit of 20 gone? Thanks again  t Vortex Finish
a
b VOrcsV l e Vortex start e d g e After panic test and flee Vortex o r c s |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 6, 2021 14:31:09 GMT
Not as such covered in the rules. BRB p. 63 (updated): "If a unit fails a Panic test: "Brought about by heavy casualties. Pivot the unit on the spot (ignoring other units) so that it is fleeing directly away from the unit/terrain that caused the most casualties in that phase — it then flees as described on page 25."
Although the vortex is not "unit/terrain," it seems logical that it would follow the same rules.
The second question is answered by BRB p. 18: "If a fleeing unit touches the edge of the battlefield (or indeed has spilled over it), the entire unit is removed from play and counts as destroyed." So, the whole unit of 20 is gone.
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Post by strutsagget on Aug 6, 2021 17:44:29 GMT
But if the vortex also ends it move outside/on edge🤓
Or would you say from the caster of the vortex?
Isn’t there also a rule that if you can’t tell you flee from closest enemy?
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Post by strutsagget on Aug 6, 2021 18:01:19 GMT
“SPELLS AND PANIC
Quite a lot of spells inflict damage in one manner or another and, as with shooting attacks, if enough damage is caused, can cause the enemy to flee from battle. Damage from magic can provoke Panic tests, as described in the Panic chapter.”
“SHOOTING AND PANIC
If a unit suffers too many casualties during the Shooting phase, there is a chance that it will panic and flee. Full rules for Panic tests can be found in the Panic chapter.”
“DIRECTION OF FLIGHT
If a unit fails a Panic test:
• Brought about by heavy casualties. Pivot the unit on the spot (ignoring other units) so that it is facing directly away from the unit/terrain that caused the most casualties in that phase – it then flees as described in the Movement chapter.
• Brought about by any other reason. Pivot the unit on the spot (ignoring other units) so that it is facing directly away from the closest enemy unit, and then flees as described in the Movement chapter.”
I would make an argue for second case other reason.
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Post by oldmandan on Aug 6, 2021 18:18:44 GMT
If I remember correctly from previous editions in this situation you flee to the nearest table edge which is what you did similar to when a unit fails to rally and continues fleeing.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 6, 2021 20:40:44 GMT
strutsagget "Brought about by any other reason" means "any reason other than heavy casualties." The vortex causes a Panic test precisely because of heavy casualties. So, either the afflicted unit flees from the vortex, or from the Wizard that cast the spell. The question is: did the Wizard cause the casualties? Because, contrary to other spells, a unit affected by a vortex has not been targeted by the Wizard. Indeed, friendly units may be affected too. Should they run from their own Wizard? Perhaps, but I am more inclined to favour fleeing from the vortex itself. One can compare with the Curse of Anraheir: will the affected unit flee from the Wizard that cast the spell or from the terrain that caused the Panic test? Isn’t there also a rule that if you can’t tell you flee from closest enemy? Not quite: if "there is nothing to flee from," but that is not the case here. BRB Official Update Version 1.9, p. 8: Q: If a unit fails a Panic test brought about by heavy casualties, and there is nothing to flee from (for example the damage caused by a miscast from a Wizard in the unit) in which direction should the unit flee? (p63) A: Pivot the unit on the spot (ignoring other units) so that it is facing directly away from the closest enemy unit.
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Post by gnoblar3 on Aug 7, 2021 11:52:59 GMT
Thanks. For the record, it was my own wizard who initially cast the spell (Purple Sun). This situation arose from a subsequent turn when the spell moved randomly. Last time I'm casting this. Always ends up on me instead of the enemy |
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Post by oldmandan on Aug 9, 2021 18:32:14 GMT
The only other suggestion I can offer on this other than fleeing to the nearest table edge is using the arrow misfire dice that way you can truly randomise the direction they flee in and replicate the sudden panic they might feel in a situation like this one.
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Post by strutsagget on Aug 10, 2021 6:53:16 GMT
The only other suggestion I can offer on this other than fleeing to the nearest table edge is using the arrow misfire dice that way you can truly randomise the direction they flee in and replicate the sudden panic they might feel in a situation like this one. I like your spirit jumping in and helping our 8ed gamers in need. As a general rule when answering rules question is it better you refer to the rulebook of 8ed and also try include quotes from the book or the source. In some special cases there is no rule then we can “make up” our own but be very clear we don’t know. Other editions, real life examples and other game systems have no bearing and can sometimes confuse more then help. It is hard enough finish the right pages and back and fourth references to special rules 😅 This is more of a friendly reminder as I really like your contributions(especially feedback on my woodies)to the forum and not a big criticism. I sometimes come out harder then I mean as english is not my main language if that is the case I am sorry and not my intention to scare anyone away from discussing 🍻. |
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Post by johngg on Aug 26, 2021 9:21:29 GMT
So it really depends on whether you consider the Vortex a 'Thing' or not. (as in either flee case the unit will flee directly away from an on table object) If you consider the Vortex as 'NOT' a thing, then strutsagget is correct and the regiment will flee away from the nearest enemy unit. If you DO consider the Vortex a 'Thing' (*and yes, that 'thing' is considered as either a unit or terrain) then the regiment would flee directly away from the vortex itself. Personally, I would consider the vortex in a similar manner to terrain, the closest example I can think of would be a Blood forest. (which may have caused enough damage to a regiment for it it take and fail a panic test. I would say the regiment would flee directly away for the final position of the blood forest, it having moved immediately after its 'feeding frenzy' [BRB pp.119] But like I said, if you do not consider the Vortex to be a unit/terrain then the regiment would flee directly away from the nearest enemy unit. |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 1, 2021 8:53:09 GMT
Well, there certainly is a concrete "thing" - the template. However, if you do not accept this as a thing, then, following the normal rules, the unit should flee from the casting Wizard, not the nearest enemy unit.
There are, of course, various units that can cause casualties on friendly units, and thus Panic tests. That is why the Direction of Flight rule quoted above states "directly away from the unit/terrain that caused the most casualties in that phase," not "from the enemy unit."
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Post by johngg on Sept 8, 2021 11:41:59 GMT
Well, there certainly is a concrete "thing" - the template. However, if you do not accept this as a thing, then, following the normal rules, the unit should flee from the casting Wizard, not the nearest enemy unit. Hmm, not sure I agree as the Wizard did not cause the damage, The effects of the spell did. This logic maaaaay have some traction regarding Magic Missiles / Direct Damage Spells, but certainly not for a remains in play vortex in the second and subsequent turns. However, as you accept there is a 'thing' then the point above is moot as The unit would flee away from the template, as per the rules. |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 8, 2021 13:10:23 GMT
johngg : By that logic, a missile unit did not cause the damage either, the effects of the missile did. Except that the rules state differently. BRB p. 62 (Heavy casualties) specifies: This test will most commonly be taken as a result of shooting attacks or damage caused by enemy spells, but can also be triggered by other factors that cause casualties, such as miscasts, misfires, Dangerous Terrain tests or other special rules. Rather than having a series of very specific triggers for a Panic test, we use this as a 'catch-all' to cover units that suffer high casualties for any reason. [ Italics mine] If we then move to BRB p. 63, we find this: "Direction of Flight If a unit fails a Panic test: * Brought about by heavy casualties. Pivot the unit on the spot (ignoring other units) so that it is fleeing directly away from the unit/terrain that caused the most casualties in that phase — it then flees as described on page 25." There is no exemption whatsoever here to treat spells differently, one of the two types of damage that will commonly trigger Panic tests for heavy casualties. Now, the FAQ addresses a specific case: when "there is nothing to flee from," and gives as an example "the damage caused by a miscast from a Wizard in the unit." And indeed, such a unit has no clear direction to flee from that, since the Wizard is inside the unit. Where is it supposed to flee to? In all directions? That is what the FAQ addresses. So, in the case of a vortex, either you flee from the vortex itself, or (more RAW) from the Wizard that cast the spell.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 8, 2021 13:27:33 GMT
To add: Vortices as RiP spells are still being managed by the casting Wizard in later turns.
BRb p. 36: "Spells marked 'remains in play' stay in effect indefinitely when cast. They only come to an end when the target is slain, or else the caster is slain, chooses to end the spell (which he can do at any time) or leaves the battlefield. The Wizard can continue to cast other spells (but not the same remains in play spell in subsequent turns) as he requires only a little concentration to keep a remains in play spell going."
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 8, 2021 14:47:59 GMT
To add: there is another spell that poses the same problem: the Comet of Casandora. Here too, I would prefer to take the "thing" i.e. the marker as centrifugal point. The case for that is, in fact, much stronger, since the Comet, not being a RiP spell, does not retain a link with the Wizard.
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