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Post by chaosreigns on Aug 11, 2021 18:02:05 GMT
Hey guys,
I recently bought a big lot of Beastmen to complete my trifecta of armies that GW hates (Bretonnia, Tomb Kings and Beastmen, baby). The highlight of the purchase for me was 23 Khorngors and 23 Pestigors, and I thought it might be fun to actually be able to use Marks of Chaos with the army for that reason. Also, I have a Chaos Giant and a Shaggoth, which are not strictly part of the Beastmen army list in 8th edition. Naturally, that led me to the Legions of Chaos rules.
I do want to ask a few questions though:
First of all, it looks like Beastmen characters must issue challenges when they are able to do so. It's possible to use unit champions to keep your characters out of a challenge for a turn, but assuming your opponent accepts the challenge with a character of their own, the champions are going to get squashed in pretty short order. How much does this change the way one should build Beastmen characters? For example, reading through Knoffles excellent guide, I noticed that people often build their Beastlords as a support character with lots of defensive kit and the Crown of Command, and others kit out their Beastlord to shred rank and file. Is it always advisable to build your Beastlord with challenges in mind? What about the Great Bray-shaman who is built for combat? Against rank and file, a Great Bray-shaman with the Mark of Nurgle, Jagged Dagger, Brass Cleaver, and a decent ward save is going to be pretty formidable, but against any serious combat character he is likely to get punched in the mouth, and only a champion stands between him and a challenge gone wrong (potentially).
So I am wondering, what are people's experiences with Beastmen characters and Eye of the Gods?
Secondly, it seems like Beastmen Ambush has improved significantly in the Legions of Chaos rules, given that duplicate units are no longer required for ambushing. Most of the Beastmen lists I have seen online don't seem to make use of Beastmen Ambush at all. Have people incorporated it into Legions of Chaos armies, and if so, to what extent? I wonder if it would be viable to build an army around Beastmen Ambush with Khazrak under the new rules? Also, I noticed that the Legions of Chaos rules say that a character with Beastmen Ambush can join ambushing units, but as far as I can tell, none of the characters actually have this rule and the Legions of Chaos rules haven't added it to anyone.
Lastly, what marks do people find most useful? Khorne increases the offensive output of Beastmen units in a major way - a big horde of Gors with a Beast Banner BSB and Mark of Khorne actually seems pretty terrifying. That's a lot of attacks. I can see Nurgle being very useful for increasing the survivability of units in general (an area where Beastmen seem to struggle a bit). Slaanesh seems very useful on ambushing units, as immunity to fear, panic and terror helps a lot with the potential lack of character support they'll otherwise suffer from. I can actually see Tzeentch being fairly decent on big Gor blocks - one of my friends played Albion once upon a time, using the 8th edition WAP rules, and Gors with additional hand weapons and Mark of Tzeentch are not dissimilar from Albion's Woad Raiders, with respectable offensive output due to hatred and tons of attacks, but with the added benefit of WS4, S4 (w/ Beast Banner) and T4 to complement the 6++ ward save, which I have to say I found does more than one might expect on massed infantry blocks.
Anyway, this was the initial list I came up with. The double monster is more just for kicks and giggles rather than to be seriously competitive, but if people think it's a really terrible idea I can swap them out for something else. Or maybe I should lean into the monster mash theme and a take a Doombull with Arabyan Carpet + Talisman of Preservation + Mark of Tzeentch (3++ ward) + Charmed Shield? Or could drop the monsters altogether and run double Bestigor herd, although the units would be a bit smaller.
++ End Times (Legions of Chaos - 8thBRB Glottkin) [2,500pts] ++- Army Size: Army (0-2999 points) + Lords +Beastlord [263pts]: Additional Hand Weapon, Mark of Khorne . Magic Items: BRB - Armour of Silvered Steel, BRB - Talisman of Preservation, Uncanny Senses Great Bray-Shaman [335pts]: Lore of Beasts, Wizard Level 4 . Magic Items: Beastmen - Jagged Dagger, BRB - Fencer's Blades, BRB - Potion of Foolhardiness, BRB - Talisman of Endurance, Many-Limbed Fiend + Heroes +Wargor [216pts]: Heavy Armour, Mark of Khorne, Shield . Battle Standard Bearer: Beastmen - The Beast Banner . Magic Items: Gnarled Hide + Core +Gor Herd [625pts]: Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer . 60x Gor: 60x Additional Hand Weapon, 60x Mark of Khorne + Rare +Chaos Giant [215pts]: Giant of Nurgle Dragon Ogre Shaggoth [215pts]+ Special +Bestigor Herd [521pts]. 34x Bestigor: 34x Mark of Khorne . Champion . Musician . Standard Bearer: BRB - Standard of Discipline Razorgor Herd [55pts]: Razorgor Razorgor Herd [55pts]: Razorgor ++ Total: [2,500pts] ++Created with BattleScribe
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 11, 2021 20:29:42 GMT
And now for something completely different. I have been wondering for some time: why does someone named chaosreigns have the coat of arms of John the Blind as his avatar? Surely, that would be more appropriate for an Empire player? The obvious answer would be that you yourself are from Luxembourg, but who knows? |
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Post by chaosreigns on Aug 11, 2021 21:14:49 GMT
Wow, I must confess I wasn't expecting that!  Way back when, in the heady days of 2004 when I was a wee lad, I was introduced to Warhammer 40k through the first Dawn of War video game. The Chaos Space Marines really caught my imagination for reasons I won't get into here (would take too long), but suffice to say that was the army I played the most in multiplayer. Hence, my username was ChaosReigns (as in, Chaos Space Marines are the best, coolest etc.). Once I started playing tabletop 40k, as a teenager and into my early 20's, I played various flavours of Chaos, so the name stuck and I use it for most of my gaming-related online accounts, tabletop or otherwise.
Fast forward to 2017 or 2018, I go over to a friend's house for a game of 40k, and he has an army of Dwarfs sitting in a glass cabinet by his gaming table. I say "Wow! I didn't know you had a Warhammer Fantasy army! I always wanted to play Warhammer Fantasy but I thought I never knew anyone who played it!" and the rest is history. As luck would have it, I had bought a Tomb Kings army a few weeks before because I saw it up on the Barter Town forums for a killer price. They were out of production at the time (if I recall correctly) so I jumped on the opportunity. I started playing Fantasy, liked it much better than 40k (so does my entire gaming group as it turns out...how about that?) and I've never looked back. I sold my 40k Chaos miniatures some time ago so the moniker is somewhat vestigial, I suppose.
Now, as much as I like the Tomb Kings and have enjoyed playing the army I quickly became interested in Bretonnia. My undergrad degree is in medieval history, and the study of the Middle Ages is a real passion of mine. Regarding John the Blind, during my undergrad, I was doing research on the Hundred Years' War for a summative paper for a fourth year class, and I came across the various accounts of the (alleged) deeds of John the Blind at the Battle of Crécy. In particular, I was reading Froissart's chronicle, and what he said about the king really struck me. Now, obviously notwithstanding the fact that most historians dispute whether Froissart's accounting of John's deeds is historically accurate, the story still stuck with me. It is certainly true that despite being blind, John somehow found himself in the midst of the battle and fought to the end despite his impairment. While some might deem John the Blind stupid, I would instead say that he was extraordinarily courageous, and that his actions at least on this one occasion are a pure embodiment of chivalric virtue; I find his courage inspirational and hope to emulate his bravery and some of that self-sacrificial spirit in my own conduct.
These days Bretonnia is my 'main' army so a coat of arms seemed appropriate for my avatar, and I picked John the Blind's for the reasons mentioned above. 
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 12, 2021 7:55:07 GMT
Thank you for the background. When I was a little kid, my grand-parents had a set of drawings from 's Lands Glorie (The Glory of our Country), showing highlights of Belgian history. You could collect them though Artis Historia points from food packages. The complete set was 550 images, but they only had the first 250 or so, one of which was: John the Blind at Crécy:  |
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Post by lordofskullpass on Aug 12, 2021 8:23:47 GMT
I have often contemplated the idea of giving Beastmen Marks of Chaos and the updated Ambush rule from Glottkin while building my own army, because it makes sense to add Marks to the army and fixes the ridiculous wording of the Ambush rule in the 7th book, but I have never liked the idea of using Eye of the Gods and Reign of Chaos mechanics in the army - those are the other Chaos armies' shops, and I want to play Beastmen, not Warriors or Daemons of Chaos.
But to be honest even these amendments still leave the army subpar I think, which is why I've been writing my own 8th Edition book for them. When it's finished I'll upload it to this forum and tag you
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Post by chaosreigns on Aug 15, 2021 3:54:06 GMT
FvonSigmaringen, wow, that is a really cool story, and a really awesome art piece. Was it originally created by a well-known Belgian artist? I am fairly certain I have seen that exact art piece before, but I can't place it at the moment, and a quick Google search by image doesn't seem to be yielding any promising results - although I will have a better look tonight when I have a bit more time. Also, if you don't mind (and it's not too much trouble) would you mind having a look at the updated list I posted in my Empire thread in the army list forum?  Our next gaming group meetup is this Tuesday and my buddy is going to be taking his new Empire army for a spin for the first time. Hopefully the amended list is better, as I took everyone's advice to heart. As for my own list on Tuesday...I figured I would give this a crack. I decided to just lean into the whole monster mash theme this time. We'll see how it does. I have never found monsters super great in 8th edition (although, I grant I may be using them incorrectly) so this may end up being a straight meme list. Even so it should be fun. - Army Size: Army (0-2999 points) + Lords +Daemon Prince (WoC) [525pts]: Chaos armour, Daemon of Nurgle, Daemonic Flight, Lore of Nurgle, Wizard Level 4 . Chaos Mutations & Powers: Flaming Breath, Scaled Skin, Soul Feeder . Magic Items: BRB - Charmed Shield, BRB - Sword of Striking Doombull [357pts]: Heavy Armour, Mark of Tzeentch . Magic Items: BRB - Arabyan Carpet, BRB - Enchanted Shield, BRB - Talisman of Preservation + Heroes +Bray-Shaman [115pts]: Lore of Shadow, Wizard Level 1 . Magic Items: Beastmen - Chalice of Dark Rain Bray-Shaman [125pts]: Lore of Shadow, Wizard Level 1 . Magic Items: Beastmen - Shard of the Herdstone Bray-Shaman [100pts]: Lore of Shadow, Wizard Level 1 . Magic Items: BRB - Dispel Scroll Wargor [206pts]: Heavy Armour, Shield . Battle Standard Bearer: Beastmen - The Beast Banner . Magic Items: Gnarled Hide + Core +Chaos Warhounds - WoC [30pts]: 5x Chaos Warhound Chaos Warhounds - WoC [30pts]: 5x Chaos Warhound Gor Herd [575pts]: Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer . 55x Gor: 55x Additional Hand Weapon, 55x Mark of Khorne + Rare +Chaos Giant [215pts]: Giant of Nurgle Dragon Ogre Shaggoth [220pts]: Additional hand weapons ++ Total: [2,498pts] ++
I do very much look forward to seeing your own take on the Beastmen rules lordofskullpass. It's true that the reworked ambush rules and allowing Beastmen to take Marks of Chaos are certainly not the end all, be all, but I think it will help a bit in the short term.
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Post by knoffles on Aug 15, 2021 7:25:19 GMT
I can’t comment really on the legions of chaos lists too much as bar the fluff I have a bit of a blind spot on ET rules supplements. That said, in the UK I’ve notice a trend with Beastmen (especially in current comps). They either use the 8th WAP Beastmen book (giving access to shaggoths, preytons and dragon ogres etc), or allow Beastmen access to the marks of chaos for free (this was introduced as part of the triple crown comp pack, which is the most widely used at present). Free marks makes other builds a bit more viable including gors with shields for the 5+ parry (with tzeentch) and the items you also covered, chariots/Ungor raiders with slannesh and the khorne gors with ahw. It also allowed the filth that was the flying Minotaur with a 3++ ward! (Filthy for others but pretty satisfying if you are a Beastmen player...edit as I wrote this I noted you had a variant of it in your list 😂).
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 17, 2021 7:47:34 GMT
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Post by chaosreigns on Aug 22, 2021 22:32:14 GMT
Ah okay, thanks very much! I will have to check out his work in greater detail! So, I played the second iteration of my above list at our game day a while back. It was lot less meme-y than I was expecting. Our meta is historically saturated with war machines, but suffice it to say that I have a newfound respect for flying monsters. Yikes. The Daemon Prince/Doombull combo was absolutely savage, and Lore of Nurgle + Lore of Shadow actually proved to be an excellent combo. The Shard of the Herdstone was excellent for pumping up my magic phase. Gors w/ Mark of Khorne + BSB w/ the Beast Banner are a pretty horrific combination, although the Gors spent a good chunk of the game out of position because they kept having to overrun. I can see how that would be an issue against an army fielding a lot of chaff. The Giant was 'meh', and unfortunately the Shaggoth flank charged a unit of Dwarf Longbeards and proceeded to flub his rolls, lose combat by 1 and then fail two leadership 8 break tests (I had the BSB nearby) before being run down, which I don't think is exactly representative of what I should expect from him generally speaking. Eye of the Gods actually wasn't a huge issue (I guess not surprising, since the only character I had challenging consistently was the Doombull), although he did managed to get turned into a Chaos Spawn in the late game, which turned what was going to be a blowout into a remarkably close game. Overall an interesting and pretty enjoyable list - I think I would drop the Mark of Khorne on the Gors and probably the Giant and Shaggoth and take a block of Ungors to fill out the Core points (unfortunately those are the only other models I have for Core infantry) and maybe see if I can get a good sized unit of Bestigors into the list as well. |
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beastyboy
Full Member
5th eddition lizardmen !
Posts: 227
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Post by beastyboy on Aug 25, 2021 11:17:26 GMT
On the face of i thought legions of chaos would solve a lot of the deficiency of the beastman armybook.
But on the whole making a horde army with already overcosted units evan more expensive just didn't makes sense to me in the end .
But some things did ungor raiders with Mark of slanesh is A* would always take !
Again non panicking chariots is a super duper choice can pack them 1 " apart and if one dose get killed no panic chains !
Also mark of khorne but I would say sub optimal .
Paying 10 points for gors with Mark of nurgle is okay but I'd only take with a shard and lots of shadow mages taking ws down a peg or two...
Bestigor at 14 pts a model ouch same cost as dwarf hammerers but without the save still glass hammers again nurgle and lots of shadow makes can make them more survivable.. but if the winds of magic don't vavour you can be bad !
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Post by thegoat on Sept 9, 2021 13:43:53 GMT
I've been writing my own 8th Edition book for them. I'd love to see a true 8th edition Beatmen army book. They were my favorite back in 4th and 5th edition -- when Gors had two wounds each. Ever since they lost the second wound, Beatmen just feel like brown Orcs that are missing everything fun from the Orc army book. I think they need a lot more work than just better ambush rules and marks of the gods. |
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Post by lordofskullpass on Sept 12, 2021 20:05:14 GMT
I've been writing my own 8th Edition book for them. I'd love to see a true 8th edition Beatmen army book. They were my favorite back in 4th and 5th edition -- when Gors had two wounds each. Ever since they lost the second wound, Beatmen just feel like brown Orcs that are missing everything fun from the Orc army book. I think they need a lot more work than just better ambush rules and marks of the gods. Great to hear you're enthusiastic! Perhaps you'd like to contribute to my poll deciding whether the Lore of the Wild should stay in? You can find it here: eefl.freeforums.net/thread/2653/lore-wild-yea-nay2 wounds is an interesting idea - I don't think Fantasy has any 2-wound infantry. All infantry are either 1 Wound regular infantry or 3-wound Monstrous Infantry. It's something to consider, thanks for bringing it up! I'll tag you when the first draft of my book is up on the forum, I'll look forward to hearing from you about it! |
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Post by thegoat on Sept 12, 2021 21:20:49 GMT
I'll tag you when the first draft of my book is up on the forum Awesome. |
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Post by DemolitionMan on Nov 17, 2021 11:28:15 GMT
I also have tomb kings, brets and beastmen! I guess we're both just masochists lol.
Locally we use the triple crown comp, where beastmen units get marks of chaos as a free upgrade but without the drawbacks of 'eye of the gods', plus you stay as a single book army so no daemons etc. We think it works great tbh, our units are mostly overcosted to start with and need a little boost so this solves both issues. You can also reliably take units you'd never have given a thought to previously once you start to explore the marks.
Does the Shaggoth add much to the army? I've never considered going full legions of chaos before but it's an interestin list you've got
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Post by knoffles on Nov 23, 2021 19:34:23 GMT
I've been writing my own 8th Edition book for them. I'd love to see a true 8th edition Beatmen army book. They were my favorite back in 4th and 5th edition -- when Gors had two wounds each. Ever since they lost the second wound, Beatmen just feel like brown Orcs that are missing everything fun from the Orc army book. I think they need a lot more work than just better ambush rules and marks of the gods. I forgot they had two wounds. They were the same in 3rd ed too. |
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Our next gaming group meetup is this Tuesday and my buddy is going to be taking his new Empire army for a spin for the first time. Hopefully the amended list is better, as I took everyone's advice to heart. 
