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Post by DiscoQing on Aug 17, 2021 0:10:56 GMT
Hi, hopefully a quick one...
Does the Banner of The World Dragon work against this Vortex?
Arnzipal's Black Horror (Lore of Dark Magic)
The argument brought to the table is that this vortex doesn't cause traditional wounds, but makes the target take a test with no armour saves allowed. But then says wards saves may be taken...
I'm in the "yes ward saves can be taken" camp, but happy to be proven wrong.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 17, 2021 7:38:43 GMT
Normally, ward saves only work against attacks that cause Wounds, not "instant kills" - unless specifically stated otherwise. Arnzipal's Black Horror specifically states otherwise, and thus ward saves can be taken. The BotWD grants a 2+ ward save against all Wounds caused by spells, magic weapons and magical attacks. The fact that BotW states "Wounds" here is irrelevant for this issue, because, as pointed out above, all ward saves are against Wounds. The description just limits the ward save to certain kinds of attacks, and since ABH is such an attack, the BoTW works against the vortex.
BRB p. 44: "Some special attacks don't inflict wounds, but require models to be removed as casualties (after failing a Ld or T test, for example). Where this is the case, not only are no saves of any kind allowed (unless specified otherwise), but the number of wounds on the victim's profile is completely irrelevant — just remove the model from play, and hope for better luck next time!"
DE AB p. 61: "Any model touched by, or passed over by the template must pass a Strength test or be slain outright with no armour saves allowed (a model may take a single ward save, if it has one - the model remains in play if the save succeeds)."
HE AB p. 65: "All models in a unit that carries the Banner of the World dragon have a 2+ ward save against all Wounds caused by spells, magic weapons and magical attacks."
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Post by DiscoQing on Aug 17, 2021 9:01:53 GMT
Cheers for this! I just copied your response for the reply 😊 So concise!
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 17, 2021 9:17:42 GMT
We serve to please and please to serve. Since I am not sure whom you were playing against: I quoted the Dark Elves AB, but Dark Magic is also available to Wood Elves - in each case, the wording for Arnzipal's Black Horror is exactly the same.
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Post by johngg on Aug 17, 2021 10:36:57 GMT
You're not going to Cardiff Crusade are you? This exact question was asked yesterday
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Post by DiscoQing on Aug 17, 2021 10:39:35 GMT
I assume this would be the case for magic resistance too?
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Post by DiscoQing on Aug 17, 2021 10:58:31 GMT
You're not going to Cardiff Crusade are you? This exact question was asked yesterday I'm helping to run it! Haha. I always like to get the views of users on here (particularly FvonSigmaringen ) before making a ruling - unless in the moment ofc! Seems as though the ruling has upset someone, however. Can't win everyone I guess!
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 17, 2021 11:03:29 GMT
I assume this would be the case for magic resistance too? Yes.
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Post by DiscoQing on Aug 17, 2021 11:11:40 GMT
Response:
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Post by johngg on Aug 17, 2021 11:16:57 GMT
Yes I saw that. Personally I can see how its argued either way. But my common sense and the fact BotWD is daft means I'm definitely siding with the 'Of course you get a ward save!'
See you in September!
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 17, 2021 11:37:34 GMT
Cannot he read?
Arnzipal's Black Horror: "Any model touched by, or passed over by the template must pass a Strength test or be slain outright with no armour saves allowed (a model may take a single ward save, if it has one - the model remains in play if the save succeeds)" [Italics mine].
Contrary to ABH, Purple Sun does not specifically state that ward saves are allowed - hence, no ward saves are allowed.
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Post by DiscoQing on Aug 17, 2021 11:41:07 GMT
Cannot he read? Arnzipal's Black Horror: "Any model touched by, or passed over by the template must pass a Strength test or be slain outright with no armour saves allowed (a model may take a single ward save, if it has one - the model remains in play if the save succeeds)" [Italics mine]. Contrary to ABH, Purple Sun does not specifically state that ward saves are allowed - hence, no ward saves are allowed. I replied with: "ABH allows a ward save to be taken. Purple Sun states no saves of any kind are allowed. I hope this helps" 😬
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Post by DiscoQing on Aug 17, 2021 11:42:58 GMT
Yes I saw that. Personally I can see how its argued either way. But my common sense and the fact BotWD is daft means I'm definitely siding with the 'Of course you get a ward save!' See you in September! Let's just hope it never comes up anyway! Worry for nothing 😉 Looking forward to rolling some dice, finally!
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Post by DiscoQing on Aug 17, 2021 12:17:22 GMT
More anger on the matter... My response on the bottom:
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 17, 2021 13:16:57 GMT
Back to basics: what is a ward save? A ward save is a saving throw that can cancel wounds suffered.
BRB p. 43: "Each wound suffered may be cancelled if the controlling player makes a saving throw. There are two types of saving throw: armour saves and ward saves."
"Models that are wounded still have a chance to avoid a grisly death by 'saving' the wound. Hand your opponent all the dice that scored successful wounds — he then rolls these in an attempt to 'save' his models. If he rolls equal to or greater than the model's save, the wound has been deflected by its armour or some other form of protection."
From this follows logically BRB p. 44 (as quoted above): "Some special attacks don't inflict wounds, but require models to be removed as casualties (after failing a Ld or T test, for example). Where this is the case, not only are no saves of any kind allowed (unless specified otherwise), but the number of wounds on the victim's profile is completely irrelevant — just remove the model from play, and hope for better luck next time!"
The statement in the spell description of Purple Sun that "no saves of any kind" are allowed is, in fact, superfluous. Even if it was not present, then still no saves could be taken.
However, ABH specifically allows ward saves, although no wounds as such have been suffered. Now, the ONLY difference between the BoTW ward save and a "generic" ward save is that it cannot cancel any wound, just wounds by magical attacks. If ABH would not be a magical attack, BotW would not work. But since it is, it does.
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