|
|
Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 1, 2021 16:51:29 GMT
The FAQ does not give that as a 3rd option, and there is really little point in revealing details after the game. The first thing I would do if a unit of NG would have Ld 10 and my opponent does not say why is ask him myself where that is coming from. Of course, if you and your opponent agree, feel free to play it otherwise.
|
|
beastyboy
Full Member
5th eddition lizardmen !
Posts: 227
|
Post by beastyboy on Sept 1, 2021 17:12:15 GMT
The FAQ does not give that as a 3rd option, and there is really little point in revealing details after the game. The first thing I would do if a unit of NG would have Ld 10 and my opponent does not say why is ask him myself where that is coming from. Of course, if you and your opponent agree, feel free to play it otherwise. I too would question an opponent if they told me a night goblin unit was ld 10 and outside there generals ld bubble |
|
|
|
Post by anechrome on Sept 1, 2021 17:17:42 GMT
The answer in the quoted Q&A never really answers the second part of the question. It leaves it up to the players to decide how and when roster details are relvealed, but even if you feel it does, it only covers magical items. Say the nightgoblins are standing within the inpiring presence of a general when they take the Ld test. You can ofc ask your opponent where the Ld 10 is coming from, but my question is, is there a RAW that forces your opponent to answer? Still talking about closed lists.
|
|
beastyboy
Full Member
5th eddition lizardmen !
Posts: 227
|
Post by beastyboy on Sept 1, 2021 17:30:21 GMT
The answer in the quoted Q&A never really answers the second part of the question. It leaves it up to the players to decide how and when roster details are relvealed, but even if you feel it does, it only covers magical items. Say the nightgoblins are standing within the inpiring presence of a general when they take the Ld test. You can ofc ask your opponent where the Ld 10 is coming from, but my question is, is there a RAW that forces your opponent to answer? Still talking about closed lists. Sportsmanship? |
|
|
|
Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 1, 2021 20:20:14 GMT
The answer in the quoted Q&A never really answers the second part of the question. It leaves it up to the players to decide how and when roster details are relvealed, but even if you feel it does, it only covers magical items. Say the nightgoblins are standing within the inpiring presence of a general when they take the Ld test. You can ofc ask your opponent where the Ld 10 is coming from, but my question is, is there a RAW that forces your opponent to answer? Still talking about closed lists. That is not correct. The FAQ allows the players to decide between the two given options, and the magical items are just an example ("like"). |
|
|
|
Post by anechrome on Sept 4, 2021 8:59:52 GMT
The "like" is in the question, not in the answer. If the answer restricted us to using 1 of the 2 options given in the question it would have said -"It's up to you and your opponent to decide which of the two methods above to use." But that's all beside the point really, because in the example I gave the goblin player could point to the general and say he's the reason the goblins have Ld 10, never revealing the fanatics. So they are not AUTOMATICALLY revealed, as you stated earlier.
Perhaps I should add that I don't think it was ever intended that you could use hidden units Ld, I just can't find the RAW to back it up.
|
|
|
|
Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 4, 2021 12:02:46 GMT
If he can point to the General for the same effect, then there is no need to use the Ld of the Fanatics in the first place. Simply use the IP of the General. Since the Fanatics have to remain hidden until released, you cannot use their Leadership.
|
|
beastyboy
Full Member
5th eddition lizardmen !
Posts: 227
|
Post by beastyboy on Sept 4, 2021 12:12:04 GMT
We seam to be going round in circles.
If I was playing somebody who told me night goblins are ld 10 until there fanatics are released i would point out to them, there not on the battlefield until I come within 8" and then they are a separate unit. So how do you benefit from a models ld when that model isn't present?
If the continued to insist I would would d6 it.
|
|
|
|
Post by anechrome on Sept 4, 2021 13:32:47 GMT
If he can point to the General for the same effect, then there is no need to use the Ld of the Fanatics in the first place. Simply use the IP of the General. Since the Fanatics have to remain hidden until released, you cannot use their Leadership. But where does it say you cannot use their Ld if they are hidden? |
|
|
|
Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 4, 2021 13:41:31 GMT
Asked and answered. If you use their Leadership, you have to say that there are Fanatics in the unit, and thus the Fanatics are not hidden anymore. However, the AB requires them to be hidden until they are released. AB>BRB in this case. |
|
|
|
Post by padre on Sept 4, 2021 13:54:36 GMT
Not particularly 'on topic', well, not directly at least, but - as a player of WFB since 1983 and 1st ed (!) ... the sort of things I enjoy considering when discussing such rulings, but my theory for giving the fanatics LD10 is a hangover from the oldest editions of WFB. Back then there was Ld, but also Cl (Cool), Int (Intelligence) and WP (Willpower). They later all got boiled into one, which was supposed to represent what we had, until that point, four very different things. I like to imagine that fanatics would have Cl of 10, WP of 10, but Ld and Int of 5 like other gobbos. I can't say they did, however, as they had no stats listed, at least in 3rd ed!
The earliest books I have buried in some pile in the attic, so looking at 3rd Ed 'Warhammer Armies' (the army list for almost every army in one book) the fanatics were stat-less and instead were referenced to p.98 of the WFB rule book, where it says "... these revered fanatics hide themselves amongst the ranks of ordinary Goblin units. Gibbering squeaky little incantations through foamy lips, they are herded into battle by those around them, their green glowing eyes staring mad and unseeing. One within a reasonable distance of an enemy regiment, the crazed Goblins are pushed out for the regiment by their comrades (with some relief one imagines) ... "
So, yeah, completely off the rails in terms of RAW & RAI in 8th ed, but the sort of thing I, as a GM, sometimes like to reference, as our hobby and campaigns slid from one edition to the next over the decades. So, for reasons you may well be laughing at, or find entirely irrelevant to your approach to the hobby, I can't see such wacky loons leading anything.
|
|
|
|
Post by anechrome on Sept 4, 2021 14:18:21 GMT
Asked and answered. If you use their Leadership, you have to say that there are Fanatics in the unit, and thus the Fanatics are not hidden anymore. However, the AB requires them to be hidden until they are released. AB>BRB in this case. Well, I think well have to disagree about that one as I dont think you have to say where the Ld 10 is coming from unless that is agreed upon before the game, but in either case, the fanatics are not any less hidden rulewise because your opponent know they are in the unit. The Hidden rule still applies when using open list gameplay, right? |
|
|
|
Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 4, 2021 14:26:10 GMT
Asked and answered: Well, they never lose the Hide in Units special rule, not even when they are released, because it is in their profile, but they have been revealed and are not hidden anymore. The whole point of being hidden is that the enemy does not know if and where there are any. And by your own admission, the enemy now knows. They are not Schrödinger's Fanaticats: they cannot be hidden from and known to the enemy at the same time. Edit: beastyboy made a good point. "Release the Fanatics" does not actually address movement before the release. So, if you could use the Ld of the Fanatics for the concealing unit, then BRB p. 74 would apply too: "If two or more models in a unit have the Random Movement special rule, pivot the unit about its centre, then roll the dice only once to determine how for the unit moves. If models in the unit have a different Random Movement value, use the slowest for the entire unit." But, as pointed out before, Fanatics are not actually models in the unit. And the point beastyboy originally made remains valid too. |
|
|
|
Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 4, 2021 14:31:43 GMT
We seam to be going round in circles. even. |
|
|
|
Post by anechrome on Sept 4, 2021 14:34:27 GMT
That cant be right, can it? In that case you could never bring fanatics to open list games as your opponent would know where and how many there are from the start.
The point about movement is handled in the rules for the fanatics - they are carried, they do not move themselves.
|
|
