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Post by chaosreigns on Sept 16, 2021 17:14:34 GMT
Hey guys,
After much hemming and hawing I am thinking that I will start painting this ludicrously huge collection of High Elves I have recently purchased by starting with a Saphery/White Tower of Hoeth themed army. The lore of the Swordmasters and the White Tower really appeals to me (love the soldier-scholar vibe the Swordmasters have going on).
That being said, I know that Swordmasters of Hoeth are typically passed over as big combat blocks in favour of White Lions of Chrace or Phoenix Guard (or both) and while I don't dispute that these are certainly better all-round units, since they are far less fragile, I find myself wondering whether Swordmasters can be made to work as a combat block.
Something that confuses me, I must confess, is that Dark Elves manage to make Black Guard of Naggarond and Executioners of Har Ganeth work as combat blocks (rather than the MSU style that seems to be the common wisdom regarding Swordmasters) despite the fact that those units are defensively very similar to Swordmasters - in fact, the Swordmasters are arguably a little more durable against shooting as they have a 6++ ward against shooting except for templates.
Has anyone tried making this work? I don't expect it to be top tier competitive, I am just hoping that I can make a themed army viable.
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Post by knoffles on Sept 16, 2021 18:10:02 GMT
Swordmasters also work fine as combat blocks. I alway ran them when playing HEs. I recommend 6-7 wide, if you aren’t hording them, to maximise their 2 attacks. WS6 is also really good vs elite units. As you stated they just aren’t as optimised as the other 2 units.
I personally never liked running them as msu. They always seemed to die too easily (though I understood the principle, it’s because running more than one rank felt as if you are wasting the additional attack in the supporting rank). I preferred WL as the msu due to their innate stubborn.
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Yvain
Full Member
Posts: 112
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Post by Yvain on Sept 16, 2021 18:36:07 GMT
The problem with Swordmasters isn't that they are bad. Its that WL and PG are so good. Most other armies in the game would kill to have SM with their stats abilities at their cost.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 16, 2021 21:57:57 GMT
Quite so. Compared with Empire Greatswords, for 2 points more, they have (omitting the irrelevant bits)
- on the plus-side: +1 M, +2 WS, +2 I , +1 A, ASF, Deflect Shots, Martial Prowess
- on the minus-side: -1 AS, no Stubborn
It is just that the WL and PG are even better.
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Yvain
Full Member
Posts: 112
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Post by Yvain on Sept 16, 2021 22:35:41 GMT
Greatswords are so overpriced. I wish they were S4.
I feel like elves on the whole get a deep discount for their abilities. Like yes they are T3, but in return they get extra M, WS, BS, Int, and ASF. Nearly all of their stuff is priced exactly the same as everyone else's. And why do all three elf races need a freebie unit with a 4+ ward?
A horde of Swordmasters with a High mage for +1 to their shooting ward seems like a great combo to me. Between hand of glory and walk between worlds, you could def get them into combat and do some serious damage. Or maybe take life for that good Flesh to Stone regrowth action.
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Post by vulcan on Sept 17, 2021 6:33:20 GMT
Dark Elves make Black Guard and Executioners work in large blocks because they don't have anything better in elite infantry, even though there is rough parity between Black Guard and Swordmasters. Although in my experience you're more likely to see large blocks of Spears or Swords, with elite infantry being in medium to small units.
High Elves use Phoenix Guard and White Lions instead because they are even better than Swordmasters, not because Swordmasters are bad.
Yeah, unit pricing in WFB is whacked. Some stuff is way too cheap for what you get (coughWarlockscough), other stuff is too expensive (coughKnightsoftheRealmcough)... and precious little in the 'just right' spot.
Which makes it truly remarkable that we can have fun games as often as we do, given how unbalanced the game can be when played in a game-breaking manner.
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Post by KevinC on Sept 20, 2021 16:00:22 GMT
Dark Elves make Black Guard and Executioners work in large blocks because they don't have anything better in elite infantry, even though there is rough parity between Black Guard and Swordmasters. Although in my experience you're more likely to see large blocks of Spears or Swords, with elite infantry being in medium to small units. High Elves use Phoenix Guard and White Lions instead because they are even better than Swordmasters, not because Swordmasters are bad. Yeah, unit pricing in WFB is whacked. Some stuff is way too cheap for what you get (coughWarlockscough), other stuff is too expensive (coughKnightsoftheRealmcough)... and precious little in the 'just right' spot. Which makes it truly remarkable that we can have fun games as often as we do, given how unbalanced the game can be when played in a game-breaking manner. ------------Well from 1st to 8th edition, GW changes their design process. In earlier editions, regardless of army, there was a system for creating the cost of each model. In later editions (probably starting with 6 edition), this was shifted a bit in the sense of costing models relative to the overall army. I don't find 8th edition broken at all. Because of the core rules, a weak army can beat a super powerful army. The real problems I found in WFB from early editions are pretty much gone in 8th edition. |
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Post by Horace on Sept 20, 2021 19:53:31 GMT
I don't even necessarily see WL and PG as outright better. They are safer choices because they are more resilient which appeals to min/max list writers. SM offensive output is miles better. Just depends how big your balls are (and who you are fighting, the rest of your army comp etc 😀)
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Post by sedge on Sept 21, 2021 15:31:02 GMT
Something that confuses me, I must confess, is that Dark Elves manage to make Black Guard of Naggarond and Executioners of Har Ganeth work as combat blocks (rather than the MSU style that seems to be the common wisdom regarding Swordmasters) despite the fact that those units are defensively very similar to Swordmasters - in fact, the Swordmasters are arguably a little more durable against shooting as they have a 6++ ward against shooting except for templates. Vulcan is right - Dark Elves don't have the alternatives that High Elves do; if we had Phoenix Guard they'd be the first choice. Executioners are a little cheaper, and attack a little differently - higher strength, killing blow and murderous prowess. You throw them at high armoured or high toughness models, which they generally outnumber so can eliminate or break quickly. Swordmasters are a little lower in strength and have two attacks; they are amazing at blending infantry, but don't handle the heavily armoured stuff quite so well. They will churn through a great big block of Clanrats, Night Goblins or Halberdiers with ease but will get locked in a battle of attrition as they run up against steadfast. Better, then, to use a smaller block that maximises its damage output, and which isn't such a big loss when it goes under. Black Guard aren't that common a pick in a Dark Elf army - you'd usually see Bleakswords for a more durable unit as they're so much cheaper plus have the parry save, or sometimes Corsairs. But most DE generals don't go defensive  15 points a model for a 5+ save and Toughness 3 is a steep price to pay. They don't have the damage output to go in a small unit - their 1 S4 attack does not compare with a Swordmaster's 2 S5 attacks. On the occasion Black Guard are used, you need at least 20, and ideally 25-30, because they die so easy, and their purpose is to stay in place and not run away. Having said that, a big Swordmaster block isn't a bad unit at all, as others have said. It's well worth a go. |
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Post by vulcan on Sept 22, 2021 2:04:34 GMT
Wait... aren't Black Guard still 2 attacks? Did they change that in 8E and I missed it?
Black Guard are an... interesting bunch. Stubborn, but without the armor to make proper use of it. Yeah, you can use them to hold a position to the last man. But T3 5+ save means they won't hold that position very long. Yes, 2 S4 attacks is nice... witches with 3 S3 poison can do most of the same job, cheaper, and in core.
Yeah, if we had Phoenix Guard or White Lions we'd use them instead of Black Guard or Executioners, especially given the relative costs. But we don't, so... we work around them instead.
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Post by sedge on Sept 22, 2021 6:00:47 GMT
I had a brain fart. Yes, black guard are two attacks, whoops.
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15 points a model for a 5+ save and Toughness 3 is a steep price to pay. They don't have the damage output to go in a small unit - their 1 S4 attack does not compare with a Swordmaster's 2 S5 attacks. On the occasion Black Guard are used, you need at least 20, and ideally 25-30, because they die so easy, and their purpose is to stay in place and not run away.