|
Post by grandmasterwang on Mar 4, 2022 17:34:33 GMT
I personally think hordes look awesome on the tabletop.
I'm mostly in favour of relatively minor tweaks as that's what I do with my games.
I certainly don't agree with buffing monstrous cavalry. Across the various armies they are in they are already some of the most competitive options.
2c on things mentioned earlier.
Agree that Iron Daemon should have grind attacks rather than Thunderstomp. Brings it more in line with it's Steamy contemporary and it's not a monster.
Plague Monks core to support theme lists....I love themed lists so how about if the general is a plague priest and no Grey Seer (fits lore, potential for updated lord level Pestilans character)
I don't like the idea of core Plague Monks in standard Skaven lists.
I do agree with tweaking sniper cannons but not sure of best solution.
|
|
|
Post by oldmandan on Mar 7, 2022 18:04:20 GMT
So if both units have equal ranks it should probably be that either they cancel out each others steadfast or both units are steadfast. I suppose this is where it should come down to damaging a unit and if you don't bring the heat or flank your opponent then combat just grinds to a halt
|
|
|
Post by mattbro on Apr 21, 2022 22:22:44 GMT
On top of my Tomb Kings book and soon Bretonnians and Mousillon, I've also started work on a corebook of my own, which is only just underway (mostly I've got about 20 pages worth of notes that I'm sorting into sections) but I've got my own thoughts about cannons/stone throwers, hordes, steadfast etc which I'll share tonight when I get home
|
|
|
Post by mattbro on Apr 22, 2022 9:02:01 GMT
For balance I believe hordes are a big one, as well as steadfast, cannons, and the magic item lists
In the edition I've started creating, I've made horde a special rule that some units have, not a general rule that everything has. That way it can only benefit the sorts of units that are thematically supposed to be "hordes" (zombies, goblins, skaven etc) not highly elite units and monstrous infantry. It also works differently. If the unit is at least 7 models wide (not ten) and it has a full rank bonus of 3, then it gains an additional +2 to it's combat resolution. This way the average horde unit will be about 28-35 models (rather than 40-50), with no real reason to be any bigger than that. This means they'll get a dependable and predictable bonus, rather than an extra rank of supporting attacks, which is more useful since most of the units that would have that rule probably would struggle to even do any more damage with an extra rank of supporting attacks. In this way a horde of 35 goblins or skaven would present a serious threat to a smaller unit of soldiers and even have an outside chance against a somewhat superior unit, which I think fits the idea of a "ravening horde".
Steadfast is easy to fix if itcan just be disrupted by a flank or rear charge, with a unit with a unit strength of, say, nine or higher.
For Cannons I suggest the following;
1. Pick a target point as normal, then roll to hit using the Ballistic Skill of the crew. On a hit the cannonball bounces in a straight line 2D6 inches, measured from the barrel of the cannon through the point where the cannonball landed. 2. If the shot misses, roll the scatter and artillery dice to determine where the ball lands, then resolve the bounce in a straight line from the barrel of the cannon as normal. On a roll of “Hit” the cannonball as landed so far off target it does not affect the battle. 3. On a roll of Misfire, consult the War Machine Misfire Table (updated table) 4. Strength 7 (9 for Great Cannon) 5. Damage D3+1
The slight dip in strength means they'll damage things like dragons on a 3+ rather than a 2+ and having to roll to hit means they'll just miss half the time. Gives things a fighting change. D3+1 Damage rather than D6 raises the minimum damage, but drops the average damage from 3.5 to 3. This makes the damage more reliable, but removes the possibility of one-hit killing large monsters with a single shot.
Finally, with the magic items, the 8th edition system of having very small unique faction-specific magic items lists and a very large common items list has created a bad imbalance because you can't balance the cost of the items against every character that could take them. The Giant Blade is worth far more to a model with WS7 and A5 than it is to a model with WS5 and A3. Likewise the sword of bloodshed is worth a lot more to a model with S5 than S4. So for that I'd roughly double the size of the unique magic item lists to 20-24 items per army, and I'd cut the common magic item list in half (removing all of the ones that are problematic for the reason I just outlined above).
Those changes I think would go a long way to fix a lot of things. I've got about 30 pages worth of notes and I'm hoping to continue work on my core book this year, once my Bretonnian and Mousillon army books are done.
|
|
|
Post by thegoat on Apr 23, 2022 12:22:30 GMT
You've got some good ideas there. Changing horde to a per unit rule would solve a lot of the potential deathstar exploits. I'm not sure about using BS when firing cannons to determine how it scatters. But I like the strength and damage changes. Your proposed magic items changes could be good. But I think that would be too large of a change to still be considered 8th edition.
|
|
|
Post by mattbro on Apr 26, 2022 2:31:51 GMT
You've got some good ideas there. Changing horde to a per unit rule would solve a lot of the potential deathstar exploits. I'm not sure about using BS when firing cannons to determine how it scatters. But I like the strength and damage changes. Your proposed magic items changes could be good. But I think that would be too large of a change to still be considered 8th edition. Thanks. Yeah, in my mind hordes was meant to benefit things like goblins, zombies, and skaven slaves etc, not sword masters and bloodletters, and I think the solution to that is to make it a special rule that only select units have and possibly rework how it function (just a standard bonus to combat res) Yeah, there are probably much simpler ways to do cannons than what I suggested, but I think reworking their profiles the way I mentioned would help a lot. Slightly lower chance to wound the really big stuff and no one-hit killing anything with more than 4 wounds If you want to get an idea of what I'm thinking a normal magic item list for a faction would look like, check out my TK book. The Bret and Mousillon books I'm working on have similar sized item lists. I've recently added two more into the TK book, the blade of mourning and staff of Osiris (which last appeared in 4th ed). Those will be in the next version in a month or twos time
|
|
|
Post by lordofskullpass on Apr 28, 2022 7:55:38 GMT
mattbro I'm impressed with your rules changes, particularly those for Hordes. I agree that it was meant to benefit cheap sword-fodder like Goblins, Clanrats and Zombies rather than elite troops like Dwarfs, Elves or Chaos Warriors. I'm curious as to why you chose 7 as the required rank width rather than an even number like 8, but certainly reducing the size of Hordes would make them less clunky and less of a points-sink. I also appreciate that you prefer the idea of having a larger unique magic item list for each faction and a smaller common magic item list, I certainly approve of your point with regards to how it affects the rules, and I also personally think it is less thematic and it makes little sense for a magnificent Sword of Bloodshed made by Elven craftsmen to behave in exactly the same way as a crude, blunt-ended choppa bashed out by an Orc. In other news, I've been thinking more about Plague Monks and Giant Rats in an 8th Edition Skaven book. I get the point some of you made about Giant Rats being potentially spammable if put in Core, but then Skaven spam Clanrats and Skavenslaves in the 7th Ed book anyway - at least putting Giant Rats into Core would allow for an additional tactical choice and make for more diverse army builds, particularly if a player wants to theme their army around Moulder. Same goes for Plague Monks and their capability to form the basis for Clan Pestilens armies. Again I agree that only allowing this if you have a Plague Priest as your general would be more thematic as Pestilens is a cult that forms a subsection of the Skaven race, but GW completely ignored similar lore when making Witch Elves core in the Dark Elves book - a move I believe was purely done to make Dark Elves as powerful as possible - so to be honest I'd like to see either the Dark Elf book balanced out a bit with Witch Elves returning to special (unless Crone Hellebron or any other Witch Elf character is the general) or Plague Monks be added to Core without restriction to provide variation and make Clan Pestilens armies a possiblity. Because the Dark Elf book for 8th is in existence and official, and Skaven haven't got an 8th book, I'd prefer for the latter to be done out of simplicity.
|
|
|
Post by johngg on Apr 28, 2022 9:28:20 GMT
@matbro some really good ideas there. Really like the cannon damage rule being D3+1 rather than D6.
As for accuracy I play my cannons the old way of picking a point and scattering half the artillery dice. you then role for the bounce drawing a line from the cannon to the new position of where the ball landed.
Seems to work well and everyone I play is happy they're not laser guided anymore.
Totally agree on the Magic items. I would certainly like to see a return to the 6th Ed way of more faction specific items and less BRB generic items.
Hordes, Again, I'm of a similar point of view but I'd make the rule applicable to units / factions. For example. Pretty much everything in Orcs & Goblins and the Skaven armies should have Hordes. It's the character of their faction / society.
As for Armies like Empire, a horde of Halberdiers? yes, seems appropriate when mustered en masse. Horde of 'Elite' Greatswords? No. For me the terms 'elite' and 'horde' do not sit well together.
As for Elves, I can't think of anything more abhorrent to any brand of elf as being describes as part of a Horde.
|
|
|
Post by lordofskullpass on Apr 28, 2022 14:15:49 GMT
@matbro some really good ideas there. Really like the cannon damage rule being D3+1 rather than D6. As for accuracy I play my cannons the old way of picking a point and scattering half the artillery dice. you then role for the bounce drawing a line from the cannon to the new position of where the ball landed. Seems to work well and everyone I play is happy they're not laser guided anymore. Totally agree on the Magic items. I would certainly like to see a return to the 6th Ed way of more faction specific items and less BRB generic items. Hordes, Again, I'm of a similar point of view but I'd make the rule applicable to units / factions. For example. Pretty much everything in Orcs & Goblins and the Skaven armies should have Hordes. It's the character of their faction / society. As for Armies like Empire, a horde of Halberdiers? yes, seems appropriate when mustered en masse. Horde of 'Elite' Greatswords? No. For me the terms 'elite' and 'horde' do not sit well together. As for Elves, I can't think of anything more abhorrent to any brand of elf as being describes as part of a Horde. I agree with you 100%. Regarding your cannon rules, you say they're 'old', hinting that they were from an older edition - I assume you're referring to 6th Edition, given that 7th Edition Cannons guessed the range, rolled the artillery dice and then bounced (not as laser-guided as 8th but still highly accurate compared to your cannon rules)?
|
|
|
Post by mattbro on Apr 29, 2022 0:50:53 GMT
mattbro I'm impressed with your rules changes, particularly those for Hordes. I agree that it was meant to benefit cheap sword-fodder like Goblins, Clanrats and Zombies rather than elite troops like Dwarfs, Elves or Chaos Warriors. I'm curious as to why you chose 7 as the required rank width rather than an even number like 8, but certainly reducing the size of Hordes would make them less clunky and less of a points-sink. I also appreciate that you prefer the idea of having a larger unique magic item list for each faction and a smaller common magic item list, I certainly approve of your point with regards to how it affects the rules, and I also personally think it is less thematic and it makes little sense for a magnificent Sword of Bloodshed made by Elven craftsmen to behave in exactly the same way as a crude, blunt-ended choppa bashed out by an Orc. In other news, I've been thinking more about Plague Monks and Giant Rats in an 8th Edition Skaven book. I get the point some of you made about Giant Rats being potentially spammable if put in Core, but then Skaven spam Clanrats and Skavenslaves in the 7th Ed book anyway - at least putting Giant Rats into Core would allow for an additional tactical choice and make for more diverse army builds, particularly if a player wants to theme their army around Moulder. Same goes for Plague Monks and their capability to form the basis for Clan Pestilens armies. Again I agree that only allowing this if you have a Plague Priest as your general would be more thematic as Pestilens is a cult that forms a subsection of the Skaven race, but GW completely ignored similar lore when making Witch Elves core in the Dark Elves book - a move I believe was purely done to make Dark Elves as powerful as possible - so to be honest I'd like to see either the Dark Elf book balanced out a bit with Witch Elves returning to special (unless Crone Hellebron or any other Witch Elf character is the general) or Plague Monks be added to Core without restriction to provide variation and make Clan Pestilens armies a possiblity. Because the Dark Elf book for 8th is in existence and official, and Skaven haven't got an 8th book, I'd prefer for the latter to be done out of simplicity. br]to answer your question, I went with seven for a couple of reasons. The main ones are unit width and total numbers. 7 is the smallest size that, to me, still looks impressive on the tabletop but is nowhere near as clunky as 10, it also allows you to have all three of your command unit in the middle, with even numbers of troops to either side (which you can't have with an 8 wide unit). Also if things worked the way I described, the unit would have to be fully ranked to get the "horde bonus" which means no less than four full ranks of seven, five if you want a buffer against shooting losses (which most people will). That gives a minimum horde of 28 and an average horde of 35, with very little incentive to have more than that (unless you're really expecting a lot of shooting losses). These I feel are large enough to look impressive on the tabletop, but not as ridiculous as the 40-50 man units that 8th edition practically mandated for an average unit of infantry. Without horde being a general rule, the normal average unit size would also shrink back down to what it was before 8th, about 20, which I think a lot of people would welcome
|
|
|
Post by mattbro on Apr 29, 2022 0:53:59 GMT
@matbro some really good ideas there. Really like the cannon damage rule being D3+1 rather than D6. As for accuracy I play my cannons the old way of picking a point and scattering half the artillery dice. you then role for the bounce drawing a line from the cannon to the new position of where the ball landed. Seems to work well and everyone I play is happy they're not laser guided anymore. Totally agree on the Magic items. I would certainly like to see a return to the 6th Ed way of more faction specific items and less BRB generic items. Hordes, Again, I'm of a similar point of view but I'd make the rule applicable to units / factions. For example. Pretty much everything in Orcs & Goblins and the Skaven armies should have Hordes. It's the character of their faction / society. As for Armies like Empire, a horde of Halberdiers? yes, seems appropriate when mustered en masse. Horde of 'Elite' Greatswords? No. For me the terms 'elite' and 'horde' do not sit well together. As for Elves, I can't think of anything more abhorrent to any brand of elf as being describes as part of a Horde. Well, I think the rule would be far more common in some lists, but still not an army wide rule. Like nearly every Orc and goblin unit would have it, but some wouldn't (black orcs, for example). Likewise most VC infantry units would have it (skeletons, zombies, ghouls etc), but grave guard wouldn't. And some army lists wouldn't have it all (elves or dwarves)
|
|
|
Post by thegoat on Apr 29, 2022 1:39:58 GMT
Here is a first pass for a list of units that should gain the Hoard special rule: - Beastmen
- Bretonnia
- The Empire
- Halberdiers
- Spearmen
- Free Company Militia
- (maybe Swordsmen, but they are a tiny bit elite)
- Dark Elves :: <null>
- Daemons of Chaos :: <null>
- Dwarfs
- High Elves :: <null>
- Lizardmen
- Orcs & Goblins
- Orc Boyz (lose Hoard rule if upgrade to Big 'uns?)
- Savage Orcs (lose Hoard rule if upgrade to Big 'uns?)
- Goblins
- Night Goblins
- Skaven
- Clanrats
- Skavenslaves
- Giant Rats
- Ogre Kingdoms
- Tomb Kings
- Vampire counts
- Warriors of Chaos
- Wood Elves :: <null>
I left off ranged units. But some units listed can be given ranged weapons (ie. Goblins & Night Goblins). I don't know, maybe Elvish spearmen should be included?
|
|
|
Post by mattbro on Apr 29, 2022 3:23:34 GMT
Here is a first pass for a list of units that should gain the Hoard special rule: - Beastmen
- Bretonnia
- The Empire
- Halberdiers
- Spearmen
- Free Company Militia
- (maybe Swordsmen, but they are a tiny bit elite)
- Dark Elves :: <null>
- Daemons of Chaos :: <null>
- Dwarfs
- High Elves :: <null>
- Lizardmen
- Orcs & Goblins
- Orc Boyz (lose Hoard rule if upgrade to Big 'uns?)
- Savage Orcs (lose Hoard rule if upgrade to Big 'uns?)
- Goblins
- Night Goblins
- Skaven
- Clanrats
- Skavenslaves
- Giant Rats
- Ogre Kingdoms
- Tomb Kings
- Vampire counts
- Warriors of Chaos
- Wood Elves :: <null>
I left off ranged units. But some units listed can be given ranged weapons (ie. Goblins & Night Goblins). I don't know, maybe Elvish spearmen should be included? That's a good list, just at a glance (I'm at work right now). I'm not sure about Elven spearmen, those guys are already very good and the extra boost could make them quite powerful (especially since they don't even cost that much) I just did some math, and if a unit of 25 empire spearmen fought a round against 35 goblin spearmen (so the goblins are getting a hypothetical+2 bonus for being in a horde) then it works out that the empire inflicts 4 unsaved wounds and the goblins inflict 3, so the final result is empire 8 (4 wounds, 3 ranks, 1 standard), goblins 10 (3 wounds, 3 ranks, 1 standard, and Horde). So a goblin horde would be expected to beat a standard, non horde unit of human infantry by 2. Im not sure if that's a little too good? On the other hand, if I work it out again, this time with the same empire unit against 35 zombies, the final scores are Empire 9, Zombies 7. So the zombies lose (and a couple more crumble), but not by that much. The +2 horde bonus, plus outnumbering, actually keeps them in the game. They feel like they have an outside chance if the dice rolls go a certain way. So maybe +2 does work. Something to think about anyway
|
|
|
Post by mattbro on Apr 29, 2022 3:30:48 GMT
Oh and that's assuming those zombies don't have a standard bearer.
|
|
|
Post by mattbro on Apr 29, 2022 3:48:33 GMT
One other reason I forgot to mention why I like 7 for a horde, is that a unit 7 models wide can engage a unit 5 models wide in combat and, assuming it's a front charge, every model in the front rank of both units will be in base contact with the other unit
|
|