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Post by johngg on Apr 29, 2022 8:40:16 GMT
One other reason I forgot to mention why I like 7 for a horde, is that a unit 7 models wide can engage a unit 5 models wide in combat and, assuming it's a front charge, every model in the front rank of both units will be in base contact with the other unit Dependant on base size
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Post by Horace on Apr 29, 2022 8:56:17 GMT
I feel that reducing the width of a horde eradicates one of the main negatives in deploying a horde - they are unwieldy and a pain to maneuver.
I am still convinced that one of the biggest issues 8th edition has faced (this impacts cannons, therefore monsters, spells indirectly, hordes) is that people either do not play the terrain rules correctly, place enough terrain, or that the terrain they place is never towards the middle of the tables. This results in nearly every battle you ever see online being hordes pushed towards each other with a couple of units of chaff running around. Placing decent sized terrain (which blocks LOS ideally) makes a HUGE difference to how the game plays. Suddenly hordes are not so appealing when they don't fit through gaps easily
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Post by lordofskullpass on Apr 29, 2022 10:03:01 GMT
Here is a first pass for a list of units that should gain the Hoard special rule: - Beastmen
- Bretonnia
- The Empire
- Halberdiers
- Spearmen
- Free Company Militia
- (maybe Swordsmen, but they are a tiny bit elite)
- Dark Elves :: <null>
- Daemons of Chaos :: <null>
- Dwarfs
- High Elves :: <null>
- Lizardmen
- Orcs & Goblins
- Orc Boyz (lose Hoard rule if upgrade to Big 'uns?)
- Savage Orcs (lose Hoard rule if upgrade to Big 'uns?)
- Goblins
- Night Goblins
- Skaven
- Clanrats
- Skavenslaves
- Giant Rats
- Ogre Kingdoms
- Tomb Kings
- Vampire counts
- Warriors of Chaos
- Wood Elves :: <null>
I left off ranged units. But some units listed can be given ranged weapons (ie. Goblins & Night Goblins). I don't know, maybe Elvish spearmen should be included? I agree there with all your suggestions except that Battle Pilgrims should also be included (as they're still scruffy peasants, just peasants who follow crusading knights around), Swordsmen should be included for definite (as they are still State Troopers, and State Troopers would be milling around in larger masses) and Dwarf Warriors should be removed (like the Elves even their Core choices are 'elite', and wouldn't be associated with being an unruly 'Horde').
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Post by thegoat on Apr 29, 2022 11:31:32 GMT
I agree there with all your suggestions except that Battle Pilgrims should also be included (as they're still scruffy peasants, just peasants who follow crusading knights around) Battle Pilgrims have a max unit size of thirty pilgrims plus the Grail Reliquae. If the Grail Reliquae occupies the space of six infantry then they could do a formation of seven files and five ranks. So they could qualify. But they would be the only special unit with the horde rule -- everything else is core. Also the fact the unit entry has a max size implies their units don't typically grow to horde size. Swordsmen should be included for definite (as they are still State Troopers, and State Troopers would be milling around in larger masses) and Dwarf Warriors should be removed (like the Elves even their Core choices are 'elite', and wouldn't be associated with being an unruly 'Horde'). I could go either way with Empire Swordsmen and Dwarf Warriors. Your statement about Dwarfs not being in an unruly horde has got me thinking, do hordes need to be unruly? Maybe there are some negatives associated with hordes. Here are some ideas: - Can't swift reform
- Can't restrain pursuit
- Must declare charge similar to frenzy (probably too much of a negative)
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Post by johngg on Apr 30, 2022 0:52:30 GMT
I feel that reducing the width of a horde eradicates one of the main negatives in deploying a horde - they are unwieldy and a pain to maneuver. I am still convinced that one of the biggest issues 8th edition has faced (this impacts cannons, therefore monsters, spells indirectly, hordes) is that people either do not play the terrain rules correctly, place enough terrain, or that the terrain they place is never towards the middle of the tables. This results in nearly every battle you ever see online being hordes pushed towards each other with a couple of units of chaff running around. Placing decent sized terrain (which blocks LOS ideally) makes a HUGE difference to how the game plays. Suddenly hordes are not so appealing when they don't fit through gaps easily Fully agree
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Post by mattbro on May 1, 2022 0:51:10 GMT
One other reason I forgot to mention why I like 7 for a horde, is that a unit 7 models wide can engage a unit 5 models wide in combat and, assuming it's a front charge, every model in the front rank of both units will be in base contact with the other unit Dependant on base size That's true, but most units I imagine having a horde special rule would all be things that are fielded on a 20mm, other than orc boyz. So most of the time everyone should be in contact with everyone else, you don't end up with that weird situation of having five or six guys in combat, then two or three out to either side just kind of standing there
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Post by thegoat on May 1, 2022 1:23:16 GMT
Dependant on base size That's true, but most units I imagine having a horde special rule would all be things that are fielded on a 20mm, other than orc boyz. So most of the time everyone should be in contact with everyone else, you don't end up with that weird situation of having five or six guys in combat, then two or three out to either side just kind of standing there FYI, of the units I proposed for the hoard rule earlier in the thread the following are on 25mm bases: Beastmen Gor Herd O&G Orc Boyz O&G Savage Orcs WoC Chaos Marauders Everything else is on 20mm bases.
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Buxe
Full Member
Posts: 135
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Post by Buxe on May 1, 2022 21:50:51 GMT
I feel that reducing the width of a horde eradicates one of the main negatives in deploying a horde - they are unwieldy and a pain to maneuver. I am still convinced that one of the biggest issues 8th edition has faced (this impacts cannons, therefore monsters, spells indirectly, hordes) is that people either do not play the terrain rules correctly, place enough terrain, or that the terrain they place is never towards the middle of the tables. This results in nearly every battle you ever see online being hordes pushed towards each other with a couple of units of chaff running around. Placing decent sized terrain (which blocks LOS ideally) makes a HUGE difference to how the game plays. Suddenly hordes are not so appealing when they don't fit through gaps easily I totally agree!
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Yvain
Full Member
Posts: 112
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Post by Yvain on May 10, 2022 15:07:58 GMT
Oh just saw this one, I have been a way for a while. I have my own WIP 8.5 edition that I have been tinkering with. I have will have to check it out and thrown in my ideas.
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Post by Crazy_Dokta on May 11, 2022 12:57:22 GMT
Hi.
Should we use that "commander/aura/trait" stuff from AoS/40k?
Something like that: * grants ability to rerolling 1's "to hit/to wound/saves/etc" to unit he is in/in X inches.
For example it may be allowed for the General and/or BSB (in addition or even instead of General presence, as option).
It gives us some new ways to play and great flexibility, I guess. Also it may be unique (characterful) for each army.
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Post by lordofskullpass on May 11, 2022 13:22:50 GMT
Hi. Should we use that "commander/aura/trait" stuff from AoS/40k? Something like that: * grants ability to rerolling 1's "to hit/to wound/saves/etc" to unit he is in/in X inches. For example it may be allowed for the General and/or BSB (in addition or even instead of General presence, as option). It gives us some new ways to play and great flexibility, I guess. Also it may be unique (characterful) for each army. Certainly regarding generic abilities I think what we already have for Generals and BSBs in 8th is fine. However, I like the idea of faction-specific abilities for each race's General. 8th tried to make all the factions more uniform in spell generation and use, Magic Items e.t.c and any way in which the factions can be given more variety again as in 6th and 7th would be welcome.
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Post by thegoat on May 11, 2022 13:37:53 GMT
Hi. Should we use that "commander/aura/trait" stuff from AoS/40k? Something like that: * grants ability to rerolling 1's "to hit/to wound/saves/etc" to unit he is in/in X inches. For example it may be allowed for the General and/or BSB (in addition or even instead of General presence, as option). It gives us some new ways to play and great flexibility, I guess. Also it may be unique (characterful) for each army. Some armies/races already have what you describe. Daemonic Heralds for instance have abilities that grant a rule/boost to the units they are near. I'd be weary of just adding similar rules to all armies.
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Post by knoffles on May 12, 2022 17:06:24 GMT
I feel that reducing the width of a horde eradicates one of the main negatives in deploying a horde - they are unwieldy and a pain to maneuver. I am still convinced that one of the biggest issues 8th edition has faced (this impacts cannons, therefore monsters, spells indirectly, hordes) is that people either do not play the terrain rules correctly, place enough terrain, or that the terrain they place is never towards the middle of the tables. This results in nearly every battle you ever see online being hordes pushed towards each other with a couple of units of chaff running around. Placing decent sized terrain (which blocks LOS ideally) makes a HUGE difference to how the game plays. Suddenly hordes are not so appealing when they don't fit through gaps easily I think it’s a throwback to earlier editions where many players always seemed to place most of the terrain around the edge of the board as it impeded movement so much.
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Post by itsonlyme on May 2, 2023 20:13:22 GMT
Some great ideas in here, just my 2 cent.
Cannons.
I’d probably change them to scattering 2D6 - crews BS value, a double 1 is a misfire.
I’d actually probably cannons to d3 wounds. These have always been a very cheap and hard counters to monsters, it’s been hard to make characters riding viable because of this.
Monster mounts should work like MC. Use the highest wounds and toughness value.
All vortex’s which cause instant death should be switched to D3 wounds.
Banner of the world dragon should be 4+ wards rather than 2+ and only on bsb.
Cavalry ranks should be reduced to 4 wide
Breaking ranks breaks steadfast.
Supporting attacks should simple be second Rank gets half attacks rounded up.
Horde only being on weak units makes a lot of sense, elites should be elite.
Units like skullreapers should function like MI, just without stomps and immunity to killing blow.
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