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Post by lordofskullpass on May 2, 2022 14:33:25 GMT
As most of your probably know right now, I'm writing an 8th Edition Beastman army book for everyone here on EEFL to enjoy, largely based on combining the best of the 6th and 7th books with some suitable points reductions and some additional surprises, but I currently am unsure on some choices for the roster, so I have come to you, the EEFL Beastlord network, for assistance. Which would you rather see in the list - the Preyton and the Cockatrice (the former because it is a Beastman creation and the latter because GW have assigned it to join the Beastmen in AoS) or the return of Dragon Ogres and Shaggoths to the list? Why not both, I hear you ask? Well I want to avoid doing a Matthias Eliasson and bloating the list with anything and everything I can think of, and whichever two I pick will take the list up to 24 non-character options, which is bigger than most 8th Edition lists already (though smaller than the Orc and Goblin list at 25 options). What do you think knoffles markdienekes chaosreigns pinge KevinC mrbaldrick mottdon beastyboy mithras grandmasterwang boda317 chronicallychaotic66 kaltheras ? I summon you all!
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Post by grandmasterwang on May 2, 2022 14:45:15 GMT
Preyton and Cockatrice for me.
Thematically they fit better with the Beastmen as wild creatures.
Phil Kelly when explaining the 7th/8th Beastmen book and adding forest creatures such as Ghorgon mentioned that locationally Dragon Ogres fit better with the Norse/Warriors of Chaos mostly coming from the cold/mountainous regions as part of his reasoning for not including them. That resonated with me and I prefer Dragon Ogres being separated from the Beastmen.
Preyton and Cockatrice I see as more likely to be a part of general rampaging Beastmen armies.
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Post by knoffles on May 2, 2022 15:50:28 GMT
Not fussed about the cockatrice but the Preyton definitely
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Post by mrbaldrick on May 2, 2022 18:25:00 GMT
There are fans of both but honestly they are all a bit redundant in the Beastmen list. The jabberslyth fills the same role as the Preyton/Cockatrice. Minotaurs and Ghorgon/Cygor fill the roles of the Dragon Ogres and Shaggoth.
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Post by sedge on May 3, 2022 11:19:16 GMT
I was going to say "both" on the grounds that they're all bestial monsters who could fit thematically within a Beastmen army, but granmasterwang's point is a good one. The north still has forests, but Dragon Ogres are more likely to get rolled up into a Chaos/Norscan Lord's warband rather than a Beastmen herd.
As Knoffles says, the Preyton is a must for Beastmen - it's a 100% thematic fit, being a forest-dwelling monster literally created by the Beastmen. Why Forge World didn't sell their monsters as Special/Rare choices in conventional armies, I'll never understand.
The Cockatrice is less clearcut. I think it's a mountain dweller rather than living in forests (there's a map in Tamurkhan that gives it a mountainous lair). I think Monstrous Arcanum also had a map suggesting locations for its monsters (and various Storm of Magic ones too) but the online copy I have to hand doesn't include that. Basilisks might be a better fit, as Monstrous Arcanum has them as living in forests, amongst other places.
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Post by mithras on May 3, 2022 13:01:14 GMT
I agree with Preyton & Cockatrice! To be honest I've never really liked dragon ogres as a concept so easy choice for me! What are the 24 non-character options you have at the moment? In the official 7th/8th edition book I only count 15 options.
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Post by sedge on May 3, 2022 13:33:45 GMT
Another thought: feral Manticore, which is the other unit Total War Warhammer felt fitted in the Beastmen army.
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Post by lordofskullpass on May 6, 2022 18:41:49 GMT
I agree with Preyton & Cockatrice! To be honest I've never really liked dragon ogres as a concept so easy choice for me! What are the 24 non-character options you have at the moment? In the official 7th/8th edition book I only count 15 options. While I ideally wanted to save it as a surprise, I have the following options: Core- Beast Herds
- Ungor Hunters (Ungor Raiders, renamed so they don’t clash with the Raiders rule)
- Ungor Looters (Ungors with Hand Weapons and Shields so that the option is there for those who have them - KevinC introduced the idea of Ungor Hunters being able to replace their bows with hand weapons or spears and shields in his 8th errata for the 6th Edition book, which seemed a great idea at first but I noticed some significant flaws - because Ungor Hunters were given the Unruly special rule in that errata as per the rest of the 6th Edition Beastman units, you’d get a situation where on the roll of a 1, your archers would charge the enemy rather than hang back and shoot, which seemed incongruous with the lore of them harassing enemies and leading them straight into the path of Minotaurs, and also I thought Ungor Hunters would make more sense just being Skirmishers rather than Raiders, because they prefer to stand back and shoot and are not used to the thick of melee, whereas melee Ungors would of course prefer to use the Raiders rule).
- Tuskgor Chariot
- Bovigors (I wanted Minotaur tribe armies to be a possible alternative list build, and after reading some nifty lore in Matthias Eliasson’s book I liked the idea of having standard-size Beastmen that had Bloodgreed rather than Primal Fury and (my own special touch) brought back the notion of ‘two-Wound Gors’ to the army, to give a Core choice that would allow a Minotaur-themed army to become a possibility - I did also consider allowing Minotaurs to become Core with a Doombull or Gorebull general, but was wondering if that’d be OP, given how many people hate Throgg armies).
- Chaos Warhounds
Special - Bestigors
- Centigors
- Minotaurs
- Razorgor Chariots
- Harpies
- Razorgor Herds
- Khorngor Garmriders (I wanted to expand the Beastman side of the roster as Eliasson’s book just added loads more monsters and it just seemed to become a home for all the Chaos monsters he didn’t want to be included in his Warriors of Chaos books, and I thought of including some God-specific Beastman units - for the Khorngors I was inspired by some Raven Twin models of Beastmen riding bigger versions of Chaos Warhounds, and thought they’d be great as a Khornate Cavalry unit that charges forward and tears its enemies apart in spectacularly gory fashion)
- Tzaangor Enlightened (including Skyfires - as per the AoS models)
- Slaangor Fiendbloods (as per the AoS models)
- Pestigor Blightlords (As per the Garmriders, I was inspired to devise my own idea of a Pestigor unit, and I thought of mounting them on ‘refugee’ Plague Toads that have escaped to the mortal realm to escape Nurgle’s persecution - I know GW tried Poxriders with Plaguebearers riding the toads, but personally I don’t consider them Canon because they were part of a Forge World creation and were replaced with Plague Drones in GW’s own rules in 8th)
- Cockatrice
- Preyton
Rare
- Chaos Spawn
- Ghorgon
- Cygor
- Jabberslythe
- Chaos Giant
- Thickskull (this is another monster that was devised by a DeviantArtist whose concept of Albion inspired my Albion army list, and because I’m a fan of a lot of his ideas I thought it’d be only fair to include his idea of a new unit for Beastmen, and used it to replace the concept of the Ramhorn, the name of which I’m not a fan of because it clashes with the Ramhorn Helm magic item which is just made from standard rams’ horns)
That makes 24 - I’d be interested to hear any other suggestions as to how I could prune this list to reduce the bloat while preserving all the essentials.
sedge While I like Manticores and the idea sounds fun, I fear the Jabberslythe already fills the niche the Manticore would be aiming for - that of a flying monster that causes terror amidst the foe’s back line - not to mention that it’s a shared unit with Dark Elves and Warriors of Chaos, both of whom can go one better by riding one into battle. Thanks for the suggestion though!
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Post by jamesacon on May 6, 2022 19:53:13 GMT
I am really looking forward to your creation! Especially what you do with the lore of the wild!
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beastyboy
Full Member
 
5th eddition lizardmen !
Posts: 205
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Post by beastyboy on May 7, 2022 7:49:25 GMT
Beastmen needs some heavy hitting units with rank so dragon ogres for moi.
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Post by thegoat on May 8, 2022 1:21:14 GMT
- Bovigors (I wanted Minotaur tribe armies to be a possible alternative list build, and after reading some nifty lore in Matthias Eliasson’s book I liked the idea of having standard-size Beastmen that had Bloodgreed rather than Primal Fury and (my own special touch) brought back the notion of ‘two-Wound Gors’ to the army, to give a Core choice that would allow a Minotaur-themed army to become a possibility - I did also consider allowing Minotaurs to become Core with a Doombull or Gorebull general, but was wondering if that’d be OP, given how many people hate Throgg armies).
Interesting. I yearn for the days when all Gors had two wounds. But your idea of one unit having two wounds has some merit. Not sure if it is enough though. I'll have to think about. - Khorngor Garmriders (I wanted to expand the Beastman side of the roster as Eliasson’s book just added loads more monsters and it just seemed to become a home for all the Chaos monsters he didn’t want to be included in his Warriors of Chaos books, and I thought of including some God-specific Beastman units - for the Khorngors I was inspired by some Raven Twin models of Beastmen riding bigger versions of Chaos Warhounds, and thought they’d be great as a Khornate Cavalry unit that charges forward and tears its enemies apart in spectacularly gory fashion)
- Tzaangor Enlightened (including Skyfires - as per the AoS models)
- Slaangor Fiendbloods (as per the AoS models)
- Pestigor Blightlords (As per the Garmriders, I was inspired to devise my own idea of a Pestigor unit, and I thought of mounting them on ‘refugee’ Plague Toads that have escaped to the mortal realm to escape Nurgle’s persecution - I know GW tried Poxriders with Plaguebearers riding the toads, but personally I don’t consider them Canon because they were part of a Forge World creation and were replaced with Plague Drones in GW’s own rules in 8th)
Sorry, I don't like these. I feel strongly that Beastmen don't ride other beasts. Chariots? Yes. Cavalry? No way! The lack of cavalry in the army is one of the things that makes them unique. What about the Khorngor and Pestigor models from back in the day? Does your Bestigor unit allow for marks of the gods?
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Post by lordofskullpass on May 9, 2022 11:21:30 GMT
- Khorngor Garmriders (I wanted to expand the Beastman side of the roster as Eliasson’s book just added loads more monsters and it just seemed to become a home for all the Chaos monsters he didn’t want to be included in his Warriors of Chaos books, and I thought of including some God-specific Beastman units - for the Khorngors I was inspired by some Raven Twin models of Beastmen riding bigger versions of Chaos Warhounds, and thought they’d be great as a Khornate Cavalry unit that charges forward and tears its enemies apart in spectacularly gory fashion)
- Tzaangor Enlightened (including Skyfires - as per the AoS models)
- Slaangor Fiendbloods (as per the AoS models)
- Pestigor Blightlords (As per the Garmriders, I was inspired to devise my own idea of a Pestigor unit, and I thought of mounting them on ‘refugee’ Plague Toads that have escaped to the mortal realm to escape Nurgle’s persecution - I know GW tried Poxriders with Plaguebearers riding the toads, but personally I don’t consider them Canon because they were part of a Forge World creation and were replaced with Plague Drones in GW’s own rules in 8th)
Sorry, I don't like these. I feel strongly that Beastmen don't ride other beasts. Chariots? Yes. Cavalry? No way! The lack of cavalry in the army is one of the things that makes them unique. What about the Khorngor and Pestigor models from back in the day? Does your Bestigor unit allow for marks of the gods? Your point is definitely a valid one - ironic isn't it, that I bring back Beast Herds to try and make the army as unique as possible and the same cause comes back to bite me when I think of other ideas?  Bestigor units, standard Beast Herds and Bovigors can take marks in my rules (though I'm debating whether to give Marks to Ungor Looters and Hunters - they may be too lowly to deserve Marks). However I really wanted to expand the Beast side of the army to stop the list just becoming a menagerie for all the Chaos monsters GW doesn't want to put into Warriors of Chaos (as Eliasson's attempt pretty much became), by introducing a unique Beast unit for each specific Chaos God, and I didn't want them all to be Monstrous Infantry because too many additional Monstrous Infantry units would clash with Minotaurs. I have based Slaangors on the 6th Edition Minotaur rofile with some Slaanesh-oriented alternative rules, and Pestigor Blightlords could be reworked to be a replacement for Chaos Trolls in the Beastman list by making them particularly resilient infantry (that could be converted from Putrid Blightkings perhaps?), but that's the very maximmum number of Monstrous Infantry I'd like to see in the army. Tzaangor Enlightened/Skyfires are fine as they are (as they're not riding beasts technically, Discs are by and large inanimate), which just leaves the Khornate unit. It could be a standard infantry unit I suppose, but we already have Khornate Gors, Bovigors and Bestigors - it would have to be a particularly unique unit to avoid treading on the hooves of these units, and special could easily lead to being overpowered. It could be a chariot but we already have Tuskgor Chariots and Razorgor Chariots, which fill that side of the army well enough. The only units I can think of that would fit in a Khornate army would be a melee-based cavalry or Monstrous Cavalry unit, and I'd ideally like to avoid anything Juggernaut-related given it wouldn't fit Beastmen and Daemons and Warriors already ride them.
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Post by grandmasterwang on May 9, 2022 14:00:06 GMT
I like the idea of something similar to Putrid Blightkings as you mentioned but adapted to Beastmen. Remember that the Blightkings are infantry, not monstrous infantry ruleswise despite having 3 wounds so if you kept you option similar they wouldn't directly clash with minotaurs.
I personally cannot stand the Pestigor Blightlords name you are using though. I'm hoping that's just a code/placeholder name haha. It's just too Warriors of Chaos with 'blightlords imo'. Blighthooves or blighthorns or something would be much more palatable to me personally.
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Post by lordofskullpass on May 9, 2022 15:02:24 GMT
I like the idea of something similar to Putrid Blightkings as you mentioned but adapted to Beastmen. Remember that the Blightkings are infantry, not monstrous infantry ruleswise despite having 3 wounds so if you kept you option similar they wouldn't directly clash with minotaurs. I personally cannot stand the Pestigor Blightlords name you are using though. I'm hoping that's just a code/placeholder name haha. It's just too Warriors of Chaos with 'blightlords imo'. Blighthooves or blighthorns or something would be much more palatable to me personally. Thanks for the suggestions! I can certainly change the name (I agree now you mention it that it doesn't sound 'beastly' enough) and 3-wound Infantry is an interesting concept, particularly as the models are still on 40mm bases. That would hurt them in combat somewhat as they'd have to have a massive (for 40mm bases) unit 5 models wide to count ranks and would only be able to contribute 1 attack each in support, but I can have a butcher's at the Blightkings rules and adapt them to make something more beast-oriented. Any ideas for a Khornate unit?
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Post by markdienekes on Jun 27, 2022 22:35:04 GMT
I think you should have the Ramhorn - Ramhorns are in the lore, and are used to crash through city/town gates. I know you have changed it to thickskull- but I believe the curving horns of the Ramhorn helmet look like Ramhorns, meant to imitate it, hence the name! I'd keep it as it is a creature in the lore. The Cacophonous Dirge in the Beastmen book is also an item made from the tusk of a Ramhorn.
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