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Post by DiscoQing on Jun 18, 2022 11:31:42 GMT
Hey, another quick question from me!
A cannon fires. 10 from the back, one presumes. A 10 is rolled. Is the target hit with a S10 hit at this point?
I guess the real question I'm asking is, if the "bounce roll" is a misfire, is the model still hit?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jun 18, 2022 11:39:52 GMT
BRB p. 112: "To determine how far the cannonball bounces, roll the artillery dice again. If the result is a misfire then the cannonball does not bounce - it thuds into the ground and comes to rest. Any model under the spot where the cannonball comes to rest is hit, see below for details of how to resolve the hit, but he is the only victim!"
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Post by thegoat on Jun 18, 2022 12:20:02 GMT
This is really a calculus thought experiment. If the guess was 10 inches from the rear edge of the target base, then the shot would land exactly on the perimeter of the base. FvonSigmaringen showed us the appropriate rule for when the bounce role is a misfire. The real question is: does the (single point) cannonball landing on a model's base's perimeter count as the model being under the spot where the cannonball come to rest? Certainly if the resting spot is wholly contained within the perimeter of the base the model is under the spot. And if the spot is outside the perimeter the model is not under the spot. But what happens at the infinitely thin perimeter of the base can be debated. End of the day the player's intended target was clear. Maybe in the future you should guess, "Nine and fifteen sixteenths inches from the rear edge of the base." That would remove the ambiguity.
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Post by johngg on Jun 18, 2022 19:06:44 GMT
You're over thinking it waaaay too much chap.
The point "10 from the back" is mostly considered as implying "a point, on the back of the base of the last model in the unit"
otherwise, what's the point? why would you intentionally aim to hit nothing?
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Post by Horace on Jun 18, 2022 19:15:03 GMT
10 from the back is not a valid target. You are supposed to place a marker and are required to have LOS to this point - which should always be checked
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Post by johngg on Jun 18, 2022 19:20:39 GMT
10 from the back is not a valid target. You are supposed to place a marker and are required to have LOS to this point - which should always be checked true, but as happens to save time people do the calculation in the head rather than get the tape measure out every time. The measure / marker is effectively redundant but the LoS requirement is very much key. To be honest, the cannon rules are naff in my mind and I play the old 6th ed way (I thik it's 6th anyway) looking forward to some updtaed rules when TOW eventually hits. I think we've answered DiscoQing's question though.
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Post by thegoat on Jun 18, 2022 19:21:42 GMT
You're over thinking it waaaay too much chap. The point "10 from the back" is mostly considered as implying "a point, on the back of the base of the last model in the unit" otherwise, what's the point? why would you intentionally aim to hit nothing? Sorry, I'm a trained engineer. I can't compromise the way I think about stuff.
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Post by johngg on Jun 18, 2022 19:24:10 GMT
You're over thinking it waaaay too much chap. The point "10 from the back" is mostly considered as implying "a point, on the back of the base of the last model in the unit" otherwise, what's the point? why would you intentionally aim to hit nothing? Sorry, I'm a trained engineer. I can't compromise the way I think about stuff. fairs. like how you had to stipulate 'trained'
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Post by thegoat on Jun 18, 2022 19:27:43 GMT
Sorry, I'm a trained engineer. I can't compromise the way I think about stuff. fairs. like how you had to stipulate 'trained' I worked had to earn those degrees!
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Post by DiscoQing on Jun 18, 2022 20:54:02 GMT
I think it's kinda implied you mean it's 10" back from a point on the target's base.
But I guess you can always just ask the opponent to be more specific, if you want to make enemies 😜
Funnily enough... 10" from the back of a monster on a 50mm base...
If you roll 6,then 2... Technically you miss?
Mixing metric and imperial 🤣
Speaking as an untrained engineer...
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jun 18, 2022 22:00:59 GMT
I am afraid the calculus thought experiment, although interesting, falls flat when looking at the actual rules. It is true that the target can be (and usually is) a single point on the ground. However, the template of a cannonball is not.
As BRB p. 113 specifies; "The bounce of the cannonball is treated exactly like a special kind of template, which we assume to be about the width of the cannonball itself."
Since we (at least in the case of the Empire) have a model carrying a cannonball, as well as a pile of cannonballs, the width of a cannonball can easily be measured, and thus it should also be clear if any part of the base is under the template.
Note also that it can suffice to hit any part of the model, not just the base.
BRB p.9 (updated): "Some models, such as characters riding chariots and monsters, might have several different locations that can normally be hit separately - in these cases a template is assumed to hit all the locations on the Model. Remember that a model's base is counted as being part of the model itself, so as long as any part of the base is under the template everything is hit."
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Post by thegoat on Jun 18, 2022 22:38:43 GMT
As BRB p. 113 specifies; "The bounce of the cannonball is treated exactly like a special kind of template, which we assume to be about the width of the cannonball itself." Since we (at least in the case of the Empire) have a model carrying a cannonball, as well as a pile of cannonballs, the width of a cannonball can easily be measured, and thus it should also be clear if any part of the base is under the template. I've always played the cannon shot as a line with zero width. But I guess the rules say otherwise. So if my cannon crew model is holding a larger cannon ball, the cannon shot hits more targets? That feels wrong.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jun 18, 2022 22:49:38 GMT
You are supposed to use GW models. Where would it get the larger cannon ball from?
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Post by thegoat on Jun 18, 2022 23:26:20 GMT
Games Workshop models have grown in size over the decades. I'm sure later cannon balls are larger than earlier cannon balls.
Plus people make conversions all the time. It would be trivial to greenstuff a larger cannon ball. And I've know several gamers who would do exactly that if it gave them an advantage in the game.
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Post by vulcan on Jun 19, 2022 0:48:05 GMT
You're over thinking it waaaay too much chap. The point "10 from the back" is mostly considered as implying "a point, on the back of the base of the last model in the unit" otherwise, what's the point? why would you intentionally aim to hit nothing? Sorry, I'm a trained engineer. I can't compromise the way I think about stuff. Then how on earth can you stand to play this game, with all it's illogical issues? If I remember correctly, the rules state that you can only hit one model per rank, so the 'modeling for advantage' issue is already covered.
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