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Post by jukei on Jun 29, 2022 18:18:50 GMT
The following list is evolving after playtesting so please check the last posts to see more. :-)
Tomb Kings [2,496pts]
Lords 636 pts
Arkhan the Black [360pts]: AB - Staff of Nagash, AB - The Liber Mortis, AB - The Tomb Blade of Arkhan, Lore of Death, Wizard Level 4
Tomb King [276pts]: Great Weapon
. Magic Items: AB - Golden Death Mask of Kharnut, BRB - Armour of Fortune, BRB - Dragonbane Gem
Core 625 pts
Skeleton Chariots [185pts] 3x . Standard Bearer: BRB - Banner of Eternal Flame
Skeleton Horse Archers [70pts]:5x
Skeleton Horse Archers [70pts]: 5x
Skeleton Warriors [300pts]: Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer
. 54x Skeleton Warriors: 54x Light Armour, Shields
Special 750 pts
Khemrian Warsphinx [210pts]
Khemrian Warsphinx [210pts]
Sepulchral Stalkers [165pts]: 3x
Sepulchral Stalkers [165pts]: 3x
Rare 485
Casket of Souls [135pts]
Hierotitan [175pts]
Necrolith Colossus [175pts]: Additional Hand Weapon
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Post by jukei on Jun 29, 2022 18:29:06 GMT
-Playing 4 monsters ( 2 sphinx and 2 "giants") is something -Very strong magic phase ( Arkhan + casket of souls + Hierotitan ) -2 Unit of stalkers to get rid of War machines and High armour save units - 3 chariots with banner flame (anti- regeneration) - Tomb king as General AS 5+ /WS 5+ /WS 2+ vs fire /golden mask ( which is working very good with lore of death and Arkhan) - big block or warriors with weapon skill 6 and with the best armour save I could give them (5+) parry save 6+ ( regeneration 6+) - 2 units of horse archers as chaff
there is a lot to say ...and analyze... I will do . For now...I hope you will enjoy it and will like it.
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Post by Crazy_Dokta on Jun 29, 2022 19:19:50 GMT
Dead Arkhan (sniped by warmachines/spells or as result of his own miscast) => crumbling of all your army, innit? I consider any list should take at least one spare wizard (broken concentration, you know). And of course that especially applies to the Undead lists (VK and TK). - It's not just about crumblin (and dispel), you should also 1)raise your dudes 2)buff your dudes. Also 50 skellies is not serious. Especially without buffs (Nehek and/or Light lores).
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Post by jukei on Jun 30, 2022 8:30:38 GMT
“Dead Arkhan “->my all army is dead ;-)
“sniped by warmachines” -> Arkhan is in a “bunker “of 54 skeletons and I don't remember there are so many War machines in the game which can snipe characters.
“sniped by spells” → you are right . But we all know that not everybody is using lore of death and sniping spells . And btw in case we will try to dispel this spell at any cost .
If we cannot then 1) our leadership is not that bad ( i am thinking about Spirit Leech ) 2) talking about Bjuna the range is 12” so we are not in danger for the first part of the games ( we have to delay the wizard unit with our chaff and try to maximise arkhan's spells in the early game. In the worst case spell is cast Arkhan toughness is 5 and this is going to help us a bit. No armour save but still regeneration 6+. It's not an automatic death. Believe it or not.
3)laniph can be also dangerous but Arkhan strenght is again 5 and this is again going to help.
"or as result of his own miscast "-> Arkhan is not all about “six dice Purple Sun of Xereus for the winsss.”
Arkhan has to be played very careful.
Tk are all about nuances.
In the first turns
First we must six dice the casket of souls spells to get rid of monsters / heavy cavarly ..all in all we need at any cost to make points and removing threats.
Unstoppable spells in this case will not affect our beloved wizard.
Second ...we need to use the laser eyes of our hierotitan to remove chaff (small units or finish the kjob the casket didn't.
It's a bound spell also based on fire...and people tend to forget.
Third finally we should use Arkhan
how?
-Casting doom and darkness
this spell remains in play and is giving us an upper hand in case later on we charge with our monsters ( 2 sphinxes...and or colossus)
-Casting Soulblight ...again it will help our combat phase and it will force the opponent to dispel it in his magic phase.
- sniping maybe if we are in range..
We are going to risk the Sun purple only later in order to limit the risk of a miscast too much early in the game. If we don t have so many dice then it means that 1) having a second wizard level 4 wizard will give us even more spells but , at least, in that turn we are not going to use them.2) we need to chose carefuly what to cast...but still casket of souls Bound spell as to be considered.
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Post by jukei on Jun 30, 2022 8:34:24 GMT
“his own miscast “----- I f we play Arkhan as I explained , at least in the first 2 -3 turns we will try to cast with 2 or maximum 3 dice . risk of a miscast is relatively low. He has a +5 to cast and a+d3 from Hierotitan It means he has a bonus to cast of + 7 on average!! ( Hierotitan wil be not killed so early ..... Enemy wm will target mainly sphinxes and casket of souls .)
“crumbling of all your army,”- I have been playing this army for years and honestly it happened really 2 or 3 times this. And when it happened I was surprised from the fact it didn't impact the game in a way to automatically make me lose. If I lost ...I lost for other reasons. Here it comes also the Tomb king general with his Leadership 10. This means our main unit of warriors will probably not be affected out Hierotitan and maybe other monster will be in the range of “12 so they will test on L 10 … and what is out the General bubble will test with leadership 8 ( sphinx – casket – colossus – stalkers ) wich it doesn 't mean we are going to lose them automatically . If they pass the test ...great . If they don't ..then they may have one or 2 wounds and still be there.
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Post by jukei on Jun 30, 2022 8:38:37 GMT
"I consider any list should take at least one spare wizard (broken concentration, you know)."
Regarding broken concentration I hope what I wrote before already answer to this,. We have a huge bonus to cast and not reaching the spell value means we used not correctly our magic dice. For sure a snake eyes can happen always ,,,but still ...if it's a crucial part of the game we are going to cast 3 dice minimum and we are going to have our spell cast most of the time we will leave maybe 2 or 1 dice for last spell. And if it goes...good .,..if not...we are ok anyway.
"And of course that especially applies to the Undead lists (VK and TK). - It's not just about crumblin (and dispel)"
- Vc are different. Their ability of raising body is much more better. I will not comment this. -Crumbling--- see above -dispel – here I admit I am weak
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Post by jukei on Jun 30, 2022 8:39:30 GMT
"you should also 1)raise your dudes"
Everybody who plays TK knows that our ability to raise dudes is not a game changer. if we play 2 wizard arkhan and one lev 4 nehek lore we will have lot of spells to cast and if we focus on nehek I believe on average just one spell will pass. (rarely 2 ). Now raising D3 +1 warriors or give back 1 wound to a sphynx will not make our day. Imho
"2)buff your dudes."
In my firt drafts I was considering to add a level 2 wizard lore of light or lore of nehek or even a level 4 wizard nehek/ light but I decided to drop it . I am going to explain why.
See ...Tk army is like a musical Harmony ...they are an orchestra and if you focus just on a single musician you are going to miss the hole point.
This army is very difficult to play . Pointing everything on magic is not going to bring you often to success.... Before posting comment on an armylist I generally open my roster editor. I try to copy the list and tweak it. When I do ..often I realize that what in theory is sound and cool is practicaly not so viable because often add somethings brings me to drop other important element in order to find the points I need.
Going back to my list I added a Lore level 4 – points 210 ( exactly like a sphynx) Then I was thinking ...ok if i play him in the warriors unit he is going to stay in the first rank ( horde formation) so I need to protect him ...then let's give him a Talisman of preservation ( 45 points). and why don't take a dispel scroll? 25 points total 280 points Now what I should drop? 1 sphynx is 210... core points are 625 on the dot so i cannot change. so maybe I need to drop also a monster or a stalker unit. See? Theory is ok ...but then we need to find room for things
Let's go ahead If I remove a sphynx what will happen? I will have only one left . opponent will focus is fire on it in if in the first turns he manages to kill it I will be in trouble …. My 2 sphynxs are needed ..for clearly bring pressure and target saturation.
then , what Can I drop? a colossus ? Ok ...175 points .,.and what ? 1 unit of stalker? 2 stalkers are my real warmachines! If i fail to entomb the first unit I can rely on the second and removing warmachine pressure is a key of this list. Same thing s for heavy armour units ( I am thinking about mournfangs now...and staff like that)
So maybe dropping hierotitan ? Casket of souls? I will make weaker my magic phase. See?
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Post by jukei on Jun 30, 2022 8:46:12 GMT
let's talk about buffes and lore of light and nehek.
Lore of Light
- shem gaze . good spell but we already have it ( remember? Hierotitan)
- pha protection. Great spell
-speed of light ...uhmm giving WS 10 and I 10 for example on our warriors is really needed ? They have already WS6 . It means they hit at 3+ like WS 10 . the difference will be only if they front a unit with WS 6 !!! Defensively speaking instead of being hit at 4+ they will be hit at 5+ this is a good thing but still not a game changer.
- light of battle ...uhmmmm
- net of amyntok.....uhmmm - Exile ...works better if we go for more light wizards.
- Birona Giving an additional attack to shynx or hierotitan is not so great .Probably we can target the colossus but still... a good target can be our warriors unit. But what are we going to have ? Additional 7 attacks strenght 3 from first rank + 1 attack Strenght 7 ( king) and+ 1 attack more form Arkhan... uhmmm..... Always strike first with our “low”Initiative will not change that much ( good against elves maybe?) honestly I am not sold.
Moreeover If we have “just” a level 4 nobody grants us we will get the best spells of the lore.
Lore of Nehek
-desert wind....uhmmm
-cursed blades I like it but still very situational. (Not working against lot of stuff and against troops with Ward save)
-neru protection ...I love it
- smiting . Working better if we play a huge unit of archers . That additional attacks reminds me of Birona. Good spell but in this list but still... ..........................................
and with this we finish our “super beloved and strong “buffes :-)) (on Tomb Guard they can do more. But this is not my list ….)
-usirian vengeance ..meh
-desiccation I love this -skull storm ...pfff
Now which lore can be better in my list ? I believe nehek. Ok As I wrote above with a level 4 I still can get useless spell but will this lore really be a game changer? Uhmmm after years I start to believe more in a Sphinx ...which is already there..(i can touch it eheheh) ...than in a spell that in the right moment can be dispelled or I cannot cast for a poor magic phase or for unlucky dice. just my 2 cent.of course.
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Post by jukei on Jun 30, 2022 8:51:21 GMT
"Also 50 skellies is not serious."
1) They are 54. Each body counts in a list like this. 2) you are partially right but it depends what you want from them If you consider this unit as a "death star"....then....no comment. If you expect them to be a tarpit ...then they will do it ok because they can still have some help from their armous save 5+ parry save ( or reg 6+) and Weapon skill 6. Arkhan has to be in the corner in order to take less damage possible and he can still cast something like soulblight , doom and darkness which can absolutely help in melee. Unit is meant to hold... we can have upper hand if we support with flank charges ( 3 chariots ...1 hiero and or 1 colossus) Golden mask is also a trick very nice ( causing terror is something if we debuff his Leadership Moreover he cannot use his Bsb reroll).
"They are not serious"....yes if you misunderstand their rule and if you see them working alone. They need to hold and be supported by magic and counter charges. I wish I could add more of them...but still....the roster editor will explain better than me why it's difficult to find points if you want to keep the “harmony “ of the list.
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Post by jukei on Jul 13, 2022 8:35:19 GMT
I played this list last week ..mini tournament 3 Battles 1) vs Beastmen - WIN -I performed very well. Arkhan helped a lot and lower their discipline was the key. My Monsters against blocks of gors..gave their best. Tomb king and the Mask were great
2) VS Ogre kingdom WIN much more difficult match. Stalkers helped a lot vs his mobile cannon and his mournfangs Unit. Arkhan killed a character and My unit of skeleton with General were able to hold and win a fight also . Obviously Monsters were less effective here. It was a minor victory
3) Vs WOOD ELVES- LOST Shooting mono elves list. He humbled me. I was never able to reach his main unit and in 3 turns he killed (with his poison arrows) 2 sphinxes and my bonegiant then he delayed my skeleton units with everything
All in all I am satisfied of this list. Pros Despite what some people may think
- Arkhan was great I miscast only once in 3 games and when I rolled on the miscast table I just lost some dice. His spells put pressure in each game. thanks to Hierotitan and casket of souls I really dominated the magic phase. Often opponent had to use his magic dice to dispel my remain in game spell and this gave me the chance to collect 2 or 3 dispel dice with Arkhan staff. In 3 games He never died even if skeleton unit was in melee. he took wounds but he survived.( he has to stay in the corner of the horde unit) Anyway I realized that my monters took all the attention and my infantry was just delayed and not considered to be a prior target.
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Post by jukei on Jul 13, 2022 8:50:55 GMT
- skeleton unit performed "seriously" well. I have never lost this unit and as I told...it was somehow avoided and "feared" :-) - Tomb King some players may say Tomb Prince is a better investment. It may be...but Tomb king open up a lot of different setup and possibilities and giving WS 6 to the unit is great. He has an additional wound ..he can be still protected somehow even if he has an expensive item such as the mask. Mask works very good with lore of death and Arkhan. -chariots they are good . I like a small unit ..i f they charge they shine. - stalkers 2 units are great vs some armies CONS - Colossus was disappointing I knew it but playing him bit more really mad eme think I should tweak my list - stalkers 2 units are not that great vs some armies :-) I am going to keep one unit for sure and drop a second unit -lore of death can be tricky to use in the beginning due the distance Btw from distance we can cast casket of souls bound spell the hierotitan laser eyes bound spell we can still use couple of spells from lore of death which has a long range and remain in game - Skeletons unit is too much slow if we want to play it more aggressively. I miss a bit of shooting ...but still it would have not helped that much to win. I didn't miss that much the second Lev 4 wizard ( light or nekhahara) honestly. As I told, one second lev 4 would cost me 210 points plus dispel scroll and a talisman of protection ...it would drain so many points . it's bit expensive for what it gives.Nut nothing wrong with it. ( just I have to drop something ....in the special or rare slot....and what? Anyway this is just my playstyle....it's not the only way to play Arkan
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Post by jukei on Jul 13, 2022 8:54:09 GMT
Even if I liked to play this list I am searching for an all comers list this list can work very well vs low initiative armies and s big block of infantry...thanks to monsters ...but against gunline really is very very difficult to survive.
I am going to change something now ...so bear with me
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Post by jukei on Jul 13, 2022 8:55:21 GMT
Lords 633 pts
Arkhan the Black [360pts]: AB - Staff of Nagash, AB - The Liber Mortis, AB - The Tomb Blade of Arkhan, Lore of Death, Wizard Level 4
Tomb King [276pts] shield
. Magic Items: AB - Golden Death Mask of Kharnut, BRB - Armour of Fortune, BRB - Dragonbane Gem
Lords had just a minor change I want to give a shield to my TK he will get an armour save 4+ and Ward Save 5++ ( 2++ vs fire) + golden mask I want to make him survive at any cost.. he has T 5 and 4 wounds...I love this Lord.
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Post by jukei on Jul 13, 2022 9:01:29 GMT
Rare 310 pts
Casket of Souls [135pts]
Hierotitan [175pts]
I think arkhan needs the casket and the hierotitan ...all together we can really be dangerous.
I dropped the colossus ...
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Post by jukei on Jul 13, 2022 9:19:11 GMT
Core 625 pts
Skeleton Chariots [185pts] 3x . Standard Bearer: BRB - Banner of Eternal Flame
Skeleton Horseman [60pts]:5x
Skeleton Horseman [60pts]: 5x
Skeleton Warriors [320pts]: Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer
. 58x Skeleton Warriors: 58x Light Armour, Shields
...................................................................................................
625 points on the dot.
Chariots are ok.. they stay.
I decided to swap the horse archers with horseman why?
- I saved 20 points - Their shots didn't do anything at all...but we all know this - Sure thay are scouts but horsemen have vanguard ( it's worse than scouts rule but still good) - Armour save 5+ - S4 on charge
I played this unit in the past ...I will give them again a second chance
Skeletons are 58 with shields and light armour+ full command
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