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Post by Grimfang Gogulk on Jul 5, 2022 20:21:00 GMT
Well, hard to put a good title there..
I am curious on your opinions on the O&Gs Animosity and Dwarfs´ Hatred (for O&Gs). As in, why are they there? I know the fluff reasons and I like that kind of stuff reflecting rules and character. And they have been there forever. And I guess, they are there for the fluff from the start - not for balance? Or hasit been kept for balance - Animosity maybe? It makes the army unreliable and fun (-ish, at times..  ).
And don´t get me wrong, I don´t want it gone - but what does Animosity mean for O6Gs - is the overall cost per model lower than it should have been otherwise (I guess - yes!)
On the other hand, Hatred for O&Gs for Dwarfs - it is something that is very hard to balance, it is only useful when facing them. And they don´t get any other bonuses (like that atleast) against other hordes, so i doubt they pay for it. So what does the O&Gs get in retaurn (other than BGs Hatred for Dwarfs) But Hatred helps the Dwarfs, in my humble opinion, A LOT in close combat against Greenskins. So it is very useful.
Was just thinking about these things while painting.. And it made me curious what others think. And maybe I am missing something. And again, I don´t want to change anaything (and i can´t and it won´t!).. Just need some other perspectives or just talk about it.. 
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Post by DiscoQing on Jul 5, 2022 20:51:29 GMT
Orcs aren't as cheap as they should be.
There are ways to mitigate Animosity, too..
Dwarfs are not more expensive because they have hatred against 2 out of 16 armies.
They do have random hatred against any foe...
(Roll a D3:
1 = Dwarf General hates Enemy General
2 = Dwarf Characters hate enemy Characters
3 = All Dwarfs hate all enemies)..
But I don't think this is necessarily built in to the Dwarf's points, compared to previous editions
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Post by Grimfang Gogulk on Jul 5, 2022 21:23:48 GMT
Yeah there is but you cannot totally cover it - and it costs..
Oh shit, totally forgot about that random Hate thing..! More into 6th Ed Dwarfs, but good point! it is characterful.. But.. Weird. Rules wise. Another thing that is hard to put a cost on, but easier than Haterd against O&Gs I guess.
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Post by KevinC on Jul 6, 2022 3:33:44 GMT
Race specific special rules in WFB have mostly always been based on lore, combined with making races different. Orcs & Goblins lack discipline and are prone to infighting, so it makes sense to have a rule that reflects this...and it's fun.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Jul 6, 2022 5:35:56 GMT
Well, hard to put a good title there..
I am curious on your opinions on the O&Gs Animosity and Dwarfs´ Hatred (for O&Gs). As in, why are they there? I know the fluff reasons and I like that kind of stuff reflecting rules and character. And they have been there forever. And I guess, they are there for the fluff from the start - not for balance? Or hasit been kept for balance - Animosity maybe? It makes the army unreliable and fun (-ish, at times.. ).
And don´t get me wrong, I don´t want it gone - but what does Animosity mean for O6Gs - is the overall cost per model lower than it should have been otherwise (I guess - yes!)
On the other hand, Hatred for O&Gs for Dwarfs - it is something that is very hard to balance, it is only useful when facing them. And they don´t get any other bonuses (like that atleast) against other hordes, so i doubt they pay for it. So what does the O&Gs get in retaurn (other than BGs Hatred for Dwarfs) But Hatred helps the Dwarfs, in my humble opinion, A LOT in close combat against Greenskins. So it is very useful.
Was just thinking about these things while painting.. And it made me curious what others think. And maybe I am missing something. And again, I don´t want to change anaything (and i can´t and it won´t!).. Just need some other perspectives or just talk about it..
In 8th Dwarfs have a chance to hate any army with the new before battle roll...they are grudgeful fellows and now any race can potentially feel their hatred. While unlikely, there's a chance that Animosity can end up benefiting the OnG in battle with the right set of lucky rules. |
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Post by Grimfang Gogulk on Jul 6, 2022 6:39:21 GMT
Yeah I totally forgot that thing.. It is fluffy AF.
I do like these things, they make it more fun and the game is essentially more about that. It just makes some armies less useful for competitive play. Not that it bothers me. To me it is a beer & pretzels game anyways.
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Buxe
Full Member
Posts: 135
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Post by Buxe on Jul 6, 2022 7:35:06 GMT
Personally I enjoy all kinds of army specific rules and differences in unit types available for the different factions. I'd hate to see animosity or the dwarf grudge rule be removed. Same as I don't want the dwarfs to have access to cavalry or MI, along with all kinds of restrictions the different factions may have. If someone wants total balance they should play chess.
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Post by Grimfang Gogulk on Jul 6, 2022 8:12:41 GMT
Like I said at the beginning, I don´t want it to go - but I am curious about it, if it was just for fluff or balance too. Especially since some of it probably is hard to balance.
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Post by lordofskullpass on Jul 6, 2022 14:26:44 GMT
Army special rules can certainly help in gameplay - Dwarfs also have the improved Resolute special rule which is great if they can get one of their 15" charges in, Relentless which prevents them from being march-blocked, and Dwarf-Crafted which . Skaven have Strength in Numbers which is very good particularly in 8th where big blocks of infantry became meta anyway. Daemons of Chaos have the Reign of Chaos special rule which can produce a big boost (as well as being a pain). Beastmen have Primal Fury which is again pretty good as well as being balanced. Elves being able to attack in extra ranks was unpleasant.
I agree with others in that, so long as they aren't too strong, they really add more flavour to the army in question and ditching them would take that fun away, whether the rules in question were good like the ones above or not so much like Animosity.
It's curious how 8th generally improved and/or expanded Army Special Rules for each race to make them more unique and fun to play, but also contributed to achieving the opposite effect by deleting most race-specific Magic Items and homogenising the way different races generated and cast spells.
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Post by Grimfang Gogulk on Jul 6, 2022 14:57:27 GMT
Yeah, rules that work more general for the army is not my "concern". But they sure add flavour.
But what does Dwarfs Hatred for Greenskins do, for O&Gs.. Is it "fair", what does O&Gs get in return (again, I´m not suggesting changes, but I am curious if it makes the game better, for both.
I never really played Dwarfs in 8th Ed, only 6th Ed really. And when i looked at the 7th Ed book, I felt that they got a alot stronger just by that, better, army wide rules.. Which also added character and feel.
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Post by Golgfag on Jul 6, 2022 15:36:19 GMT
I have never played as Greenskins but I always felt because GW pushed them ever increasingly towards being the comedy army in both fantasy and 40k that they got flavourful rules that hampered them where as most armies get flavourful rules that boost them.
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Post by Crazy_Dokta on Jul 6, 2022 17:48:18 GMT
Ouch, there are too many nuances. Fluff, balance (and attempts to it), different opinions "how-it-should-be" (and existence of favourites), devil-may-care attitude, etc. We can discuss for a long time, but we are where we are. Why is Khorne mark getting you Frenzy instead of Hatred? Why is HE getting 50pts super-puper-mega banner, while WE/DE is getting a meh rag? Well, why all these elf-things (high and dark ones) are too cheesy? Why is Tzeentch lore getting you just dakka-dakka stuff? (Compare with 7ed for example). Also why is Eye of gods getting to WoC champs +1BS (and no one opportunity to use it)? What, "Chaos is fickle"?  And a lot of other stuff. Anyway, I'm loving the O&G with all their foolery, fun and "strange rules"  And I firmly believe O&G is one of the best armybooks we have ever. |
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Post by DiscoQing on Jul 6, 2022 17:51:35 GMT
A simple answer to any question regarding this sort of stuff:
"It's Warhammer, don't over-think it"
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Post by knoffles on Jul 6, 2022 18:46:40 GMT
I’ll add that in 8th, Dwarves also get hatred vs Skaven. Hating both those races are definitely very fluffy considering the number of holds that have fallen to them.
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Post by Grimfang Gogulk on Jul 7, 2022 7:18:36 GMT
I have never played as Greenskins but I always felt because GW pushed them ever increasingly towards being the comedy army in both fantasy and 40k that they got flavourful rules that hampered them where as most armies get flavourful rules that boost them. It is nowehre near as much in 40k, rules-wise. or atleast you have control over them. That´s always been a big difference between WFB and 40k.
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