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Post by 1plussave on Jul 9, 2022 19:19:22 GMT
Heres a Fun highlander list I cooked up after getting wasted by shooting armies, due to a complete lack of return fire in a tournament, thanks to poor decisions regarding unit choices. (Is 8 a lot? for Ironguts no, For great weapon Maneaters? yes.)
The goal is simple; use the Firebelly and Butcher to whittle softer targets and provide ranged pressure with the gunnery units, have the Maneaters pressure the backline with the Firebelly in support and Keep the Gutbus rolling down on big value targets to challenge serious threats. The Bruiser and Slaughtermaster can tank a decent amount of damage, counter enemy attempts to push through Trollguts and their items counter Ward saves and enemy Wizards that get too close.
At this point taking points out of anything means somebody loses their role, so I'm not sure if I can pare anything down further. I'm almost to wondering if a ScrapLauncher is more effective than a Thundertusk?
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Buxe
Full Member
Posts: 135
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Post by Buxe on Jul 9, 2022 21:30:56 GMT
I'd remove the butcher* and invest in more leadbelchers and maneaters + a bellower for the leadbelchers.
Without any defensive gear your firebelly will be a bullet/dart/arrow/lightning bolt magnet. I'd give him the dispel scroll and the ruby ring and stick him either in the leadbelchers or bulls.
*in my opinion with 3 spellcasters there will on average not be enough power dice for all of them
I usually run a somewhat similar list.
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Post by 1plussave on Jul 9, 2022 23:07:13 GMT
I'd remove the butcher* and invest in more leadbelchers and maneaters + a bellower for the leadbelchers. Without any defensive gear your firebelly will be a bullet/dart/arrow/lightning bolt magnet. I'd give him the dispel scroll and the ruby ring and stick him either in the leadbelchers or bulls. *in my opinion with 3 spellcasters there will on average not be enough power dice for all of them I usually run a somewhat similar list. Hes a flying brick, the speed and reach the carpet gives him makes him useful in a way that very little Nothing(?) else in the ogre book can match. I couldn't drop the carpet without losing a very real and fast moving threat, if he gets shot to death by anything but a moving Warmachine or Magic I WILL be surprised. The Butcher is there because Iceshard Blizzard has pulled the same weight as Toothcracker and Trollguts in every game, the spell is downright close to the MVP for facing Great Weapon elves and just about everything else. Between the two of them I can usually get off 2 fireballs for 3 dice and then either start dropping buffs for the Slaughtermaster or Blizzard a priority target. Actually between the three of them the chance to 1 dice the Ruby Ring, 2 dice a Fireball and 2 dice a Bonecruncher (or 1 dice as my last cast for the turn) I can afford to wait if I manage to knock off any ranged threats, 2d6 hits has a good shot at dropping bolt throwers and 5d6 total possible hits will wear down a lot of the things that give me trouble. The Maneaters are where I like them, they are as cheap as can be and are strong enough to jump things without being a deep shame if they die. The Leadbelchers are about the same; strong enough to do damage but will not be missed. Granted the Small units, multiple ranged methods and cheap spellcasters are all an attempt to deal with an issue stemming from not having the ability to shoot back or catch people stepping backwards. I figure the saturation of cheap, mobile and ranged threats backed up by a decent spread of casting will let me roll the Gutbus onto whatevers expensive. The Butcher backs up the bulls and the Firebelly either runs up the field to outflank or stays close to one of my blocks to get LOS! rolls against cannons and such-like.
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Post by 1plussave on Jul 18, 2022 22:44:08 GMT
Mostly what keeps me coming back is the Firebelly, he Needs(?) Fireball for the constant barrage of S4 hits between him and the Butcher, but That leaves me with no chance to screw around with the rest of the lore of fire. Flame Cloak has potential for example, on a flying Ogre charger, Flaming sword is a new option against regenerators
On the other hand the Butcher getting Harmonic Convergence alongside Iceshard Blizzard would wreak havoc between the low costs and the great effects the 2 have in most Ogre fights, gimping enemy offence and leadership or pushing Ogre wound rolls up. The Ironblaster Approves.
I just wonder which lore would be best to double down on their wizard levels, currently its the Heavens Butcher who has the second level, I don't have the points to slot in anything else without losing functionality, more points spent on the firebelly makes him a bigger target too.
The final wildcard is whether I should be dropping both and fielding a second flying Slaughtermaster with the Hellheart and Carpet and Lore of Death for an extreme bullshit third take. But I lose highlander in that scenario.
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Post by jamesacon on Jul 18, 2022 23:39:33 GMT
Have you considered making the level 4 the lore of heavens and the level 2 maw magic? This way you could get commet to really mess with opponents gun lines and forces opponents to move towards you. Also thunderbolt and chain lightening can help! Your level 2 will have spinemarrow which I think is the most important spell in ogre lore. Since your gut star is not that big, losing out on a high chance of getting troll guts is not terrible. Just some food for thought
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Post by 1plussave on Jul 18, 2022 23:54:16 GMT
Have you considered making the level 4 the lore of heavens and the level 2 maw magic? This way you could get commet to really mess with opponents gun lines and forces opponents to move towards you. Also thunderbolt and chain lightening can help! Your level 2 will have spinemarrow which I think is the most important spell in ogre lore. Since your gut star is not that big, losing out on a high chance of getting troll guts is not terrible. Just some food for thought Trollguts and Toothcracker have been the big 2/3 of the evil Triple alliance with Iceshard Blizzard that carries me, with the 2++ wards vs fire, Regeneration and regrowing wounds I've found the Gutbus and Slaughtermaster runs wild with the Maws buffs. I Could almost justify switching for Beasts but Regeneration on Ogres has been my saviour, especially seeing as my most persistent losses are to Shooting armies with the Death by a thousand armour piercing shots. The last big downside is Heavens is a Long range blasting lore whereas the Gutbus NEEDS combat to get back its points, It really fits well on the Butcher because he and the Bulls can opt to sit back and shoot people.
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Post by jamesacon on Jul 19, 2022 5:54:04 GMT
Valid points!
Harmonic convergence is really awesome on ironguts, and curse of the midnight wind works against anyone. I feel heavens is not as weak as others think and has a good all comers feel to it. So it's not just a stand back and blast away lore.
I always find my opponents avoiding my regen, tooth cracker, stubborn ironguts. So it rarely makes it points back in CC. And more than once I have had flaming banner wielding halberd warriors of chaos unit charge me and break the unit. WS 3 is just so abysmal.
But that's my experiences haha.
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Post by jamesacon on Jul 19, 2022 6:16:45 GMT
Back to your list though, I feel the thundertusk could go. Maybe drop that for another iron blaster and 3 leadbealchers. Would provide you with more shooting to return fire.
In my experiences with thundertusk I found that for shooting they are very underwhelming. And looking at how your list wants to play, that could go.
As always, just some random thoughts of mine! For the maw!
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Buxe
Full Member
Posts: 135
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Post by Buxe on Jul 19, 2022 10:25:05 GMT
Back to your list though, I feel the thundertusk could go. Maybe drop that for another iron blaster and 3 leadbealchers. Would provide you with more shooting to return fire. In my experiences with thundertusk I found that for shooting they are very underwhelming. And looking at how your list wants to play, that could go. As always, just some random thoughts of mine! For the maw! This is my experience too! In my opinion the Thundertusk has nothing going for it apart from the ASL bubble. But is the ASL bubble worth the price tag? Not in my book. Like Jamesacon writes, I'd swap the Thundertusk for more Leadbelchers and maybe a second Ironblaster. Be prepared for opponents complaining about "cheese" if you add the second Ironblaster though
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Post by 1plussave on Jul 19, 2022 11:27:01 GMT
2 Ironblasters is out because I'm going for Highlander (No duplicates of any kind) I like the Thundertusk mainly for the bubble; taking ASF from elves has been a huge help if I decide to take a charge (No rerolls and the threat of Iceshard Blizzard strikes fear into their pointy ears). The pair of long range S6 shots with the Sphere and the Harpoon are nice when they hit but the S6 Terror causing monster that he is usually sees worth by pinging wounds off something or keeping somebody back who can watch the flanks and rear of the gutbus. Honestly he'd be 3 Grimhorn Rhinox right now if the tournaments I was going to hadn't banned them.
As for Regen; between the 2 main characters having the 2++ ward vs fire and my super aggro style I find I can usually force the confrontation with an expensive unit and either be regenerating my way out of danger or having a gotcha moment on somebody with flaming.
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Post by jukei on Jul 19, 2022 15:06:46 GMT
1plussave you are for sure much more better than me in playing this fatty guys. I have this army but i don't play them so often. Anyway please let me share with you my experience. Recently I drop the classic guts deathstar ( your unit is not that big..but ok) and I decided to play a big unit of ogre with ironfist. Slaughtermaster lev4 ..tyrant bsb and butcher lev 1 ( lore of heaven) . BSB - I tested with the dragonhide banner and also sometimes with the rune MAW. 3 mournfangs 2 cannons thundertusk and other things interesting such as Gorger!:-) I can tell you that my unit of 19 !! ogre is performing really well ....( horde formation ) I can support them with magic and when I buff them ...they are devasting I will not go back to guts for now. I really enjoyed to play this bulls classic unit. They are scary ( you can reform them in case you don't want to horde them.) I have so many bodies ...and really I can tell I never lost this unit.
you may also try to have 13 ogre + lords/heroes + 1 unit of 6 ogres to make them less big and more manouvrable. just my 2 cent
we can hurt even without great weapons and having the thundertusk near is really ...cool.
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Post by 1plussave on Jul 19, 2022 23:38:47 GMT
I've tried the horde, with Ironguts and with Bulls, people in tournaments just avoid it, it really saves your points but theres just so little room to maneuver the horde. You'll kill about 500 points of chaff while they use their stuff to kill the rest of your army.
You also basically hard lose to Frostheart phoenixes.
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Post by jamesacon on Jul 20, 2022 3:45:13 GMT
Ah I didn't take into account the highlander approach.
Then perhaps take a scrap launcher instead of a second ironblaster and beef out the leadbealchers to 6 with a muso?
Have you tried pistols and sniper on maneaters? Could add some more ranged threats and they still get an extra attack.
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Post by jukei on Jul 20, 2022 16:04:59 GMT
I've tried the horde, with Ironguts and with Bulls, people in tournaments just avoid it, it really saves your points but theres just so little room to maneuver the horde. You'll kill about 500 points of chaff while they use their stuff to kill the rest of your army. You also basically hard lose to Frostheart phoenixes. I agree again! the second option I was thinking is to play 2 unit of bulls..one of 6 and second of 12 with Lord/heroes ( no horde. 4 x4 +Characters ) all with ironfirst should be around 625 points . so your core is ok. I don't know if you have already tried something like this. :-)
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Post by 1plussave on Jul 23, 2022 1:10:13 GMT
I'm not sure if the Scraplauncher hits hard enough, and though I do love the pistols I am just as enamored by the cheap Scouts, I suppose I'll use a few practice games to determine if I should alter the list to have more ogres vs the Thundertusk. I've tried the horde, with Ironguts and with Bulls, people in tournaments just avoid it, it really saves your points but theres just so little room to maneuver the horde. You'll kill about 500 points of chaff while they use their stuff to kill the rest of your army. You also basically hard lose to Frostheart phoenixes. I agree again! the second option I was thinking is to play 2 unit of bulls..one of 6 and second of 12 with Lord/heroes ( no horde. 4 x4 +Characters ) all with ironfirst should be around 625 points . so your core is ok. I don't know if you have already tried something like this. :-) Still breaks highlander and the bulls just don't threaten the way the Guts do.
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