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Post by sion997 on Jul 23, 2022 10:30:13 GMT
Hi! How does a Warpfire Thrower (skaven) fire, when "stand and shoot" - how to do it practically against a charging unit? imgur.com/a/JvbHz8O
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Post by thegoat on Jul 23, 2022 11:00:15 GMT
What exactly are you confused about? After the charge is declared you declare a stand and shoot reaction. Then you fire the warpfire thrower following the rules you linked to.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 23, 2022 11:01:47 GMT
As the BRB p. 17 says: "If a Stand and Shoot charge reaction is declared, the unit makes a normal, although out of sequence, shooting attack against the charging unit." Hence, the Warp Fire Thrower stands and shoots in exactly the same way as normal, except that it must be aimed at the charging enemy unit. Skaven AB p. 60: "The device is fired by placing the flame template with its narrow end touching the Warpfire Thrower barrel and the large end aimed at any target in line of sight. Roll the artillery dice and move the template the number of inches indicated – this is where the warpflame lands. The template can overshoot a target, representing the team firing in too high an arc. All models touched by the template are hit automatically. A unit suffering any casualties must take a Panic test. A roll of misfire means the weapon does not fire but rolls on the chart below." Edit: for some reason, I cannot see the picture, but from thegoat 's response, I gather it is the rules I quoted.
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Post by oldmandan on Jul 23, 2022 11:09:59 GMT
It's simple choose whether to stand and shoot or flee, measure distance between the weapon team and charging unit to support your decision place template then as per its rules roll the artillery dice and move the template to resolve hits. I would advise against standing and shooting if the target is too far away or it is too close you will likely miss. Rapid reaction is good as it allows you to shoot against any charging unit regardless of direction or distance.
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Post by sion997 on Jul 23, 2022 11:40:03 GMT
Thanks a lot for the help!
So just to clear it up: Does the the charging unit move into the Warpfire Throwers maximum range, when the Warpfire Thrower shoots?
or does the Warpfire Thrower simply miss its "stand and shoot" if the charging unit for whatever reason is outside the maximum range of 18 inches?
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Post by thegoat on Jul 23, 2022 12:24:47 GMT
Thanks a lot for the help! So just to clear it up: Does the the charging unit move into the Warpfire Throwers maximum range, when the Warpfire Thrower shoots? or does the Warpfire Thrower simply miss its "stand and shoot" if the charging unit for whatever reason is outside the maximum range of 18 inches? You resolve the shooting before the charging unit moves. If the shot misses, it misses. Even if the charging unit subsequently moves through where the shot landed.
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Post by sion997 on Jul 23, 2022 12:29:45 GMT
Thanks a lot for the help! So just to clear it up: Does the the charging unit move into the Warpfire Throwers maximum range, when the Warpfire Thrower shoots? or does the Warpfire Thrower simply miss its "stand and shoot" if the charging unit for whatever reason is outside the maximum range of 18 inches? You resolve the shooting before the charging unit moves. If the shot misses, it misses. Even if the charging unit subsequently moves through where the shot landed. Thank you
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 23, 2022 14:22:30 GMT
Well, you definitely can stand & shoot at charging units outside range. BRB p. 39: "A model can normally only shoot at a target if it lies within the maximum range of the weapon it is shooting with. The one exception to this is when a unit Stands and Shoots — here we assume that the charging enemy has entered the weapons' range before the unit shoots."
That said, the S&S rules seem to have been written primarily with BS shooting in mind, and it is unclear how one should apply this to the Warpfire Thrower. Certainly, in the 7th edition Skaven Errata & FAQ (March 2010 - before the release of the 8th BRB) it said:
Q. What range is used for a Warpfire Thrower's Stand and Shoot reaction? A. The Warpfire Thrower is fired before the charging unit is moved. If the target is too far, then we suggest fleeing instead…
It does not seem to have been addressed in 8th edition.
Of course, you would still hit any other unit at the spot where the warpflame lands.
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Post by thegoat on Jul 23, 2022 15:06:13 GMT
That said, the S&S rules seem to have been written primarily with BS shooting in mind, and it is unclear how one should apply this to the Warpfire Thrower. These are GW's rules we are discussing. Why would the writers bother spending 2.2 seconds thinking about how two rules interact?
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Post by oldmandan on Jul 23, 2022 17:59:00 GMT
Exactly as mentioned above, the only thing I would add which I meant to do in my previous post was that aswell as considering range and the likelihood of missing you need to consider the unit charging. I would be more inclined to S&S a block of infantry or a large unit of cavalry and if they have a low leadership then that's a all the more reason.
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Post by jamesacon on Jul 23, 2022 18:49:17 GMT
Hey all,
Sorry to hijack the thread. But I am after some clarification on the poison wind mortar and stand and shoot. Is it considered a warmachine?
My buddy asked when I charged it and we couldn't decide, since we thought it fires like a stone thrower we decided to treat it as such. Hence no stand and shoot.
Is this correct? Or is it treated as the warpflame thrower?
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Post by rahotep75 on Jul 23, 2022 20:22:52 GMT
Hey all, Sorry to hijack the thread. But I am after some clarification on the poison wind mortar and stand and shoot. Is it considered a warmachine? My buddy asked when I charged it and we couldn't decide, since we thought it fires like a stone thrower we decided to treat it as such. Hence no stand and shoot. Is this correct? Or is it treated as the warpflame thrower? Each Weapon Team has their own rules determining if it can stand and shoot. The only ones that can do that are the Warpfire Thrower and the Ratling Gun.
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Post by thegoat on Jul 23, 2022 20:39:00 GMT
Hey all, Sorry to hijack the thread. But I am after some clarification on the poison wind mortar and stand and shoot. Is it considered a warmachine? My buddy asked when I charged it and we couldn't decide, since we thought it fires like a stone thrower we decided to treat it as such. Hence no stand and shoot. Is this correct? Or is it treated as the warpflame thrower? Each Weapon Team has their own rules determining if it can stand and shoot. The only ones that can do that are the Warpfire Thrower and the Ratling Gun. Exactly. The rules for the warpflame thrower explicitly state it can stand and shoot.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 23, 2022 22:37:19 GMT
In 8th edition, any missile weapon can S&S, unless specifically stated otherwise. So, a missile weapon does not need specific permission. The fact that some 7th edition Skaven weapon teams have a specific permission is, as such, neither here nor there - that permission is superfluous. You would need something to override the general rule to keep the WFT from S&S (even if the practicalities may be unclear in some cases).
Neither the WFT nor the Poisoned Wind Mortar is a war machine, but they do differ in one important respect. The relevant rule here is BRB p. 109 (updated): "Unless specified otherwise, all weapons in this section (and all other weapons mounted on war machines) have the Move or Fire and Slow to Fire special rules." The Slow to Fire special rule is not tied to the war machine troop type, but to a specific type of weapon.
The rules for the Warpfire Thrower do not specify it as being one of the "weapons in this section," while the Poisoned Wind Mortar specifically states that is is fired like a stone thrower. Hence, the latter falls under the rules for war machine weapons, and thus has the Slow to Fire special rule. So, no S&S.
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Post by oldmandan on Jul 25, 2022 20:26:58 GMT
Is this correct? Or is it treated as the warpflame thrower?[/quote]
You made the right call. The poison wind mortar fires like a stone thrower and cannot S&S
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