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Post by thorpyuk on Jul 29, 2022 22:20:18 GMT
[/quote] Each Weapon Team has their own rules determining if it can stand and shoot. The only ones that can do that are the Warpfire Thrower and the Ratling Gun. [/quote]
The dwarf Gyrocopter also may stand & shoot as its classed as 'unique', and does not have the slow to fire rule. The big question being- at what point does it shoot? General consensus seems to be when the template is at max range, so 1/2 models are hit
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Post by rahotep75 on Jul 29, 2022 23:13:45 GMT
Each Weapon Team has their own rules determining if it can stand and shoot. The only ones that can do that are the Warpfire Thrower and the Ratling Gun. [/quote] The dwarf Gyrocopter also may stand & shoot as its classed as 'unique', and does not have the slow to fire rule. The big question being- at what point does it shoot? General consensus seems to be when the template is at max range, so 1/2 models are hit[/quote] Whatever general consensus you are talking about is incorrect. An enemy unit declares a charge at the Gyrocopter. The Gyrocopter declares Stand and Shoot. Without moving the enemy unit, the Gyrocopter places the steam gun template. You then see what enemy models are under the template. Basically, if the enemy unit is more than 8” away (the length of the flame template) no enemies will be hit. It would be extremely poor sportsmanship if the dwarf player did a stand and shoot and placed the template over a unit that wasn’t declaring a charge.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 30, 2022 7:02:11 GMT
What rahotep75 says. Here is one we prepared earlier. How do you read the S&S rules as applied to a template weapon? It's a funny one since most of them have the Slow to Fire special rule... In the BRB it says, "If a Stand and Shoot charge reactions is declared against an enemy unit that starts it's charge outside the firing unit's maximum range - the shooting is resolved normally assuming the enemy is just within maximum range of the shooting unit's shortest-ranged weapon." Obviously in the unit is already within the distance to be hit by the template, then no probs. But if it starts the charge outside, I guess you'd position it where the first rank gets hit? (depending on size of model would only be a couple of models though...) That’s pretty much how I read it. If it’s just within range then just a couple of models (perhaps 3 20mm bases at most) would be partially under the template. As I have already specifically pointed out above, the steam gun of a gyrocopter has no range, [or to be more precise, range is not applicable. Hence, rules that apply to range are equally not applicable to the steam gun, and the steam gun can only hit models that are actually under the template.]
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Post by thorpyuk on Jul 30, 2022 8:49:51 GMT
Each Weapon Team has their own rules determining if it can stand and shoot. The only ones that can do that are the Warpfire Thrower and the Ratling Gun. The dwarf Gyrocopter also may stand & shoot as its classed as 'unique', and does not have the slow to fire rule. The big question being- at what point does it shoot? General consensus seems to be when the template is at max range, so 1/2 models are hit[/quote] Whatever general consensus you are talking about is incorrect. An enemy unit declares a charge at the Gyrocopter. The Gyrocopter declares Stand and Shoot. Without moving the enemy unit, the Gyrocopter places the steam gun template. You then see what enemy models are under the template. Basically, if the enemy unit is more than 8” away (the length of the flame template) no enemies will be hit. It would be extremely poor sportsmanship if the dwarf player did a stand and shoot and placed the template over a unit that wasn’t declaring a charge. [/quote] The rule book page 17 under stand & shoot says "A stand and shoot reaction can be declared against an enemy unit that starts it's charge outside the firing units maximum range - the shooting is resolved normally assuming the enemy is just within maximum range of the shooting units shortest-range weapon." So therefore the gyro template would fire when the enemy reached the tip, hitting probably 2 models max. I agree it would be unfair to either direct the template at another unit, or deliberately wait until the charging unit is 1" away and hit them with the full template, but it would be illogical (and against the rules) for it just to fire at the air...
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 30, 2022 9:26:03 GMT
thorpyuk: As pointed out in my previous post, range is not applicable in the case of the Gyrocopter steam gun. Hence, rules that apply to range are equally not applicable to the steam gun, and the steam gun can only hit models that are actually under the template.
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Post by thegoat on Jul 30, 2022 10:36:07 GMT
I concur. For Stand and Shoot with weapons that use templates or blast markers you resolve the stand and shoot reaction before the charging unit moves, irregardless of if the template/blast is capable of touching the charging unit or not.
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Post by thorpyuk on Jul 30, 2022 11:15:31 GMT
thorpyuk: As pointed out in my previous post, range is not applicable in the case of the Gyrocopter steam gun. Hence, rules that apply to range are equally not applicable to the steam gun, and the steam gun can only hit models that are actually under the template. Where in the rule book, or the dwarf army book is that stated? If the answer is 'nowhere', then that's just an opinion. I'm not saying you're wrong by the way, I'm just saying that this is one of those rule 'grey-areas', and therefore open to interpretation. My view is that, in accordance with the rulebook that states the stand & shoot reaction would be made at maximum range, its reasonable to assume the operator would at least wait until the range of his weapon would hit one or two models before firing
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 30, 2022 11:24:10 GMT
Dwarf AB p. 50 under the rules of the Steam Gun (where else?): "Range: n/a."
This is, by the way, also the case for the rules of flame throwers (BRB p. 114). These, however, cannot S&S, because, contrary to the Gyrocopter steam gun, they do have the Slow to Fire special rule.
As an Attorney-at-RAW I do not go for opinion, but for RAW=RAI.
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Post by vulcan on Jul 30, 2022 14:11:56 GMT
thorpyuk : As pointed out in my previous post, range is not applicable in the case of the Gyrocopter steam gun. Hence, rules that apply to range are equally not applicable to the steam gun, and the steam gun can only hit models that are actually under the template. So... it's a capability that is ultimately pointless then? You're never better off with a S&S than with a flee, so why bother even allowing it?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 30, 2022 14:31:34 GMT
Well, S&S is not only the alternative to Flee!, but also to Hold. Furthermore, the problem only arises in the case of the WFT, when the charging unit starts its charge "outside the firing units maximum range." Theoretically, the WFT should be able to S&S in this case, but, since its range is random, it is unclear how to apply this in practice. There is no problem at all, if the the charging unit starts its charge inside the firing unit's maximum range.
In the case of the GSG, there no problem either. If the charging unit would be under the template, it is hit; if not, it is not. Contrary to the WFT, which could still fall short or overshoot, and hit nothing at all, you actually know whether S&S is worth the risk for the GSG.
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Post by thegoat on Jul 30, 2022 15:12:17 GMT
So... it's a capability that is ultimately pointless then? You're never better off with a S&S than with a flee, so why bother even allowing it? If you roll poorly a stand and shoot with regular bows can result in zero wounds on the charging unit. Does that mean it is also "a capability that is ultimately pointless?" No it had a potential to generate wounds. It just didn't work that particular time. Depending on the relative positions of the units, a gyrocopter stand and shoot could do damage to the charging unit.
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Post by 1plussave on Jul 30, 2022 15:40:07 GMT
thorpyuk : As pointed out in my previous post, range is not applicable in the case of the Gyrocopter steam gun. Hence, rules that apply to range are equally not applicable to the steam gun, and the steam gun can only hit models that are actually under the template. So... it's a capability that is ultimately pointless then? You're never better off with a S&S than with a flee, so why bother even allowing it? Unless you begin in range of the unit, something you'd know about by say... using the weapon on the unit. Theres a lot to be said about placing yourself for a S&S where you know how many hits you will get before they move. At least for the steam gun, the Skaven one requires intelligent placement and positioning (read; Luck). As with all S&S the risk/reward is placing a unit to get a second shot in this game turn at the risk of being caught, though sometimes being caught can also be the point.
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Post by thorpyuk on Jul 30, 2022 16:39:35 GMT
Dwarf AB p. 50 under the rules of the Steam Gun (where else?): "Range: n/a." This is, by the way, also the case for the rules of flame throwers (BRB p. 114). These, however, cannot S&S, because, contrary to the Gyrocopter steam gun, they do have the Slow to Fire special rule. As an Attorney-at-RAW I do not go for opinion, but for RAW=RAI. I've seen these acronyms before but I have literally no idea what they mean, please can someone enlighten me? RAW? RAI? I'm assuming they're some sort of tournament rule system?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 30, 2022 16:56:39 GMT
RAW = rules as written RAI = rules as intended
I always work on the assumption that RAW=RAI, unless there are clear indications to the contrary. What are clear indications to the contrary? Primarily, if the following are transgressed upon: - a rule must be playable - it is the same game in all language versions. Hence, comparison of the different versions can help to solve rules' discussions.
My golden rule: most rules' discussions turn out to be superfluous, if one adheres to the simple principle: unless specifically stated otherwise, normal rules apply.
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Post by 1plussave on Jul 30, 2022 16:56:57 GMT
(R)ules (A)s (W)ritten vs. (R)ules (A)s (I)ntended.
Reading the rule entirely literally as it is written vs arguing about the rules as most reasonable people would intend it.
Common terms for all tabletop and RP games.
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