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Post by oldmandan on Aug 27, 2022 10:59:15 GMT
Thanks for that, but the thing with afirebellie is they are very, very good in a challenge. Basically people use them, issue a challenge then at the end of the challenge if you haven't killed them instantly you get hit by their breath weapon which yes anyone in a challenge who has one can do, so a as a comparison to a Tzanbull that might not be quite as cut and dry.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2022 12:23:03 GMT
This is awesome! Thanks for all of the work that has gone into it.
Quick observation from me - Mark of Slaanesh and Uncanny Senses are both priced at 10 points for characters. One gives +1 Movement and +1 Initiative and the other only gives +1 Initiative so maybe there needs to be some disparity in points cost?
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Post by lordofskullpass on Aug 30, 2022 16:41:43 GMT
This is awesome! Thanks for all of the work that has gone into it., Glad you like it! Thank you for your kind words! Quick observation from me - Mark of Slaanesh and Uncanny Senses are both priced at 10 points for characters. One gives +1 Movement and +1 Initiative and the other only gives +1 Initiative so maybe there needs to be some disparity in points cost? That's a very fair point, I'll see what I can do there to amend that!
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Post by grandmasterwang on Sept 5, 2022 14:46:06 GMT
Lore of Tzeentch lore attribute query.
Does this work for spell 1. The hex? Currently it reads like you could roll for every enemy model in the unit as they are all hit by the hex but not wounded.
Overall the Lore attribute is very strong, with it enhancing damage capabilities greatly and the chance to bring in tzeentch spawn in awkward spots. RAW multiple tzeentch minotaurs and enlightened could be brought back with a single casting. Not sure if this is intentional or to encourage mono god builds?
It's much more powerful than the Tzeentch attribute for DOC, even without the ability to bring back units from the dead/summon spawn.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Sept 5, 2022 15:10:55 GMT
Bovigor Strain
I personally love this gift/option in concept. I think currently RAW the Minotaurs couldn't protect the Bovigor lord or character with LOS due to different unit type.
Would the Bovigor still be infantry on a 25mm base? This would mean they must be placed at the edge of the unit and stompable and would mean the unit had a weird footprint with 40mm and 25mm bases mixed.
I really think it's a cool option and I like your little lore entry for it.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Sept 5, 2022 15:29:24 GMT
Moonclaw.
Morrslieb is the moon in the official Beastmen book.
I like that you have made him a lvl 2 wizard.
In your first lore paragraph there is a whopper 7 line sentence about the Barren hills, contrast with GW paragraph multiple sentences.
Aura of Madness, good change imo.
Nice custom spell to replace his one off stone thrower ability. Umbralok seems better pointed in your version.
Points seem fair overall and I like the even 200 as a cavalry optipn. While I liked the original version stone thrower ability your version is cool and overall I'd say an improvement on the interesting character.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Sept 6, 2022 3:25:00 GMT
Lore of Slaanesh attribute seems fine and fluffy and synchronises with Phantasmagoria.
Lore of Nurgle attribute needs more clarification. Who decides what characteristic? Is it random? If it's the enemy player who decides then it's ok imo. Otherwise imo too powerful as it triggers quite easily.
You have worded this one differently with "one or more hits" to your Tzeentch attribute which means that it wouldn't work with Curse of the Leper which thematically it synchronises with.
The wording of this one with "one or more hits" would tidy up your Tzeentch attribute and visa versa.
Slaanesh attribute is currently the weakest of the 3 by a fair bit I'd say. I do like it though but maybe these 2 are too good.
Currently I'd rank them Tzeentch by far, Nurgle, Slaanesh the way you have them.
Nurgle only affects 3 spells though but is stong on the 3/7 spells so maybe that's a mitigating factor.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Sept 6, 2022 15:01:39 GMT
Chaos Giant.
Ah.... I love the expensive Beastmen Giant with its chomp ability.
Ferdinand my Beastmen Giant once nommed 3 shaggoths in a single game and ended up on full health in a bout of ridiculous rolling.
Still, cannot blame you for using the WOC giant instead at 200 points. Just clarifying that the Tzeentch mark being 5 points cheaper than WOC is deliberate? The 15 point 6+ Ward save magic item is 15 points so I thought the WOC giant marks were fair.
It has 6 wounds so statistically on a 6+ it should save 1.
Chaos Spawn. Same as WOC, fine. Tzeentch lore attribute specifies a Spawn with Mark of Tzeentch is created....this is effectively a new unit, not a Spawn of Tzeentch (would be even more OP given the breath weapon).
So a Spawn with a 6+ ward save is created? If the Lore attribute triggers. If this is the intention, maybe a note that this is a unique Chaos Spawn could be made in the Tzeentch lore section. I'm not sure if this is deliberate but actually really like this in concept. Balance wise this alone on a roll of (without ability to bring back dead Beastmen tzeentch units) would be pretty cool.
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Post by lordofskullpass on Sept 6, 2022 18:58:01 GMT
Lore of Tzeentch lore attribute query. Does this work for spell 1. The hex? Currently it reads like you could roll for every enemy model in the unit as they are all hit by the hex but not wounded. No it's only meant to work on direct damage and magic missile spells, i.e. spells that actively inflict hits on the target, as opposed to hexes which affect targets but don't actually inflict damaging hits on them. Overall the Lore attribute is very strong, with it enhancing damage capabilities greatly and the chance to bring in tzeentch spawn in awkward spots. RAW multiple tzeentch minotaurs and enlightened could be brought back with a single casting. Not sure if this is intentional or to encourage mono god builds? It's much more powerful than the Tzeentch attribute for DOC, even without the ability to bring back units from the dead/summon spawn. Hmm, I didn't realise the potential the attribute has for resurrecting multi-wound models at their full number of wounds. I think I will tweak that to only resurrect Infantry models, i.e. Gors, Ungors and Bestigors. Bovigor Strain I personally love this gift/option in concept. I think currently RAW the Minotaurs couldn't protect the Bovigor lord or character with LOS due to different unit type. Would the Bovigor still be infantry on a 25mm base? This would mean they must be placed at the edge of the unit and stompable and would mean the unit had a weird footprint with 40mm and 25mm bases mixed. I really think it's a cool option and I like your little lore entry for it. Yes, any character with the Bovigor Strain gift will retain their Infantry troop type and still be on a 25mm base, I had originally included it as a way of integrating a character with my planned Bovigor unit idea, but even when the Bovigors themselves got canned I thought it would be fun to keep this gift in, because a Beastlord with Bloodgreed would be able to do a lot of damage as part of a Beast Herd or Bestigor unit that won the first round of a combat. Moonclaw. Morrslieb is the moon in the official Beastmen book. I like that you have made him a lvl 2 wizard. In your first lore paragraph there is a whopper 7 line sentence about the Barren hills, contrast with GW paragraph multiple sentences. Aura of Madness, good change imo. Nice custom spell to replace his one off stone thrower ability. Umbralok seems better pointed in your version. Points seem fair overall and I like the even 200 as a cavalry option. While I liked the original version stone thrower ability your version is cool and overall I'd say an improvement on the interesting character. Moonclaw I really went to town on in reworking his abilities because I really wanted to do the character and his lore justice and stop him being such a liability to the army as he was in 7th Edition. I thought it made little sense to have a different aura ability when the lore confirms that his aura essentially does what a Jabberslythe does, that is, turn nearby enemies mad, and I wanted his Stone Thrower ability to become a spell so that it becomes variable as to whether he can cast it or not, and he can use it multiple turns if he casts it successfully. I also removed the wound-on-misfire because there's enough risk with Miscasts through Irresistible Force in 8th anyway. I reduced the points cost of Umbralok because I based him upon the points cost in the Warriors of Chaos book of a Chaos Steed (16 for a Hero) and a Daemonic Mount (35 points, the same as Umbralok's points cost in the 7th book I believe). Umbralok is by and large better than the Chaos Steed but significantly weaker than the Daemonic Mount, so I gave him a 10 point discount to reflect that. Otherwise though I was happy to keep Moonclaw at his old 200 point cost (though including Umbralok this time) because now I've given him a profile to match that cost. Lore of Nurgle attribute needs more clarification. Who decides what characteristic? Is it random? If it's the enemy player who decides then it's ok imo. Otherwise imo too powerful as it triggers quite easily. It shouldn't be the enemy player because it wouldn't make sense for the enemy to decide how their own units suffer. If you think it's too powerful as it is I can raise the minimum dice roll needed to reduce an enemy's stats - perhaps 6+ would be best. You have worded this one differently with "one or more hits" to your Tzeentch attribute which means that it wouldn't work with Curse of the Leper which thematically it synchronises with. This was on purpose - I felt that Curse of the Leper combined with the Lore attribute would be rather too strong, and I wanted the Nurgle Attribute to apply to any enemy unit that was hit by a Magic Missile or Direct Damage spell from the Lore. The wording of this one with "one or more hits" would tidy up your Tzeentch attribute and visa versa. I also worded the Tzeentch attribute deliberately, because in the case of the Tzeentch attribute, I believed that in the lore, any enemy that suffered a wound from the direct damage/magic missile and died would be dead, and would not be able to mutate into a living Beastman (Tzeentch can't resurrect the dead, at least not as far as I know), whereas enemies that are hit by the spell but not wounded may have been infected by the rapid, uncontrollable mutation but have not died, so could turn into a living Beastman/Chaos Spawn. Slaanesh attribute is currently the weakest of the 3 by a fair bit I'd say. I do like it though but maybe these 2 are too good. Currently I'd rank them Tzeentch by far, Nurgle, Slaanesh the way you have them. Well I certainly plan to balance the Tzeentch and Nurgle attributes now that you've pointed out the level of power they are at, so hopefully in my next book version these should be more on a level footing in terms of power.
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Post by lordofskullpass on Sept 6, 2022 19:06:22 GMT
Chaos Giant. Ah.... I love the expensive Beastmen Giant with its chomp ability. Ferdinand my Beastmen Giant once nommed 3 shaggoths in a single game and ended up on full health in a bout of ridiculous rolling. Still, cannot blame you for using the WOC giant instead at 200 points. Just clarifying that the Tzeentch mark being 5 points cheaper than WOC is deliberate? The 15 point 6+ Ward save magic item is 15 points so I thought the WOC giant marks were fair. It has 6 wounds so statistically on a 6+ it should save 1. Chaos Spawn. Same as WOC, fine. Tzeentch lore attribute specifies a Spawn with Mark of Tzeentch is created....this is effectively a new unit, not a Spawn of Tzeentch (would be even more OP given the breath weapon). So a Spawn with a 6+ ward save is created? If the Lore attribute triggers. If this is the intention, maybe a note that this is a unique Chaos Spawn could be made in the Tzeentch lore section. I'm not sure if this is deliberate but actually really like this in concept. Balance wise this alone on a roll of (without ability to bring back dead Beastmen tzeentch units) would be pretty cool. I certainly liked the unique Beastman Giant, but one of the things I like the least about 8th Edition is that it made the armies a bit more homogenous than in previous Editions, through standardising casting and dispelling spells, making most Magic Items generic and also standardising Giants - the Ogre Kingdoms one has Stubborn again which scrubbed out some of the good 6th Edition lore about Slavegiants, for example. Therefore I felt that to keep to the spirit of 8th I had to keep the Beastman Giant similar to the WoC Giant, sadly. I will change the MoT cost back to that in the WoC book, again I think this was a relic of my original plan of making the Beastman MoT a 5+ Ward and nothing else. I've suggested tweaking the Tzeentch lore to just resurrect Infantry models above, but just summoning Chaos Spawn is another alternative if even resurrecting Infantry is considered OP. I will change the Lore Attribute to refer to a Spawn of Tzeentch as per the Bestiary entry, to avoid any rules lawyers trying to suggest that it is referring to a different unit in its own right
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Post by lordofskullpass on Sept 10, 2022 16:27:12 GMT
V1.1 of the 8th Edition Beastman Army Book is out now! (Same as before, the link is in the first post of the thread, having replaced the link of the old book). I look forward to hearing your views on this updated version, which has implemented many changes suggested here with the aim of toning down the power level of the army, as V1.0 made the army a bit too OP in a fair few places Enjoy, fellow Beastlords!
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