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Post by mcnuggs on Nov 2, 2022 19:32:30 GMT
Hello again EEFL, I return after a brief hiatus with a brand new lovely Greenskin army that has brought much joy to our gaming group. As I was predominantly stomping with High Elves, and was the one who knew the most about the game, I created this list to have fun, while still being competitive enough to stand against the other threats at the table:
Lords: Savage Orc Great Shaman, Level 4, Lucky Shrunken Head, Fencer's Blades (Gives unit 5++, good magic, WS10 gives a little bit of protection and makes him a murder machine with Fists of Gork)
Heroes: Savage Orc Big Boss, BSB, Glittering Scales, Great Weapon (Bit of protection, adds high S punch to unit, takes challenges) Night Goblin Big Boss, Great Cave Squig, Enchanted Shield, Spear (Makes squig hoppers more reliable, warmachine hunting/flanking, bit o' punch for the unit)
Core: 38 Savage Orc Big 'Uns, 10x4, Musician, Banner, Additional Hand Weapons (Both characters go in here, marches up the center of the battleline and kills whatever) 20 Night Goblins, 10x2, Musicians, Short Bows, 2 Fanatics (Screen/clear chaff) 20 Night Goblins, 10x2, Musicians, Short Bows, 2 Fanatics (Screen/clear chaff)
Special: 10 Squig Hoppers 5x2 (Goblin Boss goes here, to hunt warmachines) 28 Squig Herd, 7x4, 21 Squigs and 7 Herders (Flanking/Squig bomb) 6 Trolls, 3x2 (Marches up alongisde general, other strong combat unit)
Rare: 1 Mangler Squig (Chaff and draw fire) 1 Mangler Squig (Chaff and draw fire) 1 Doom Diver (Soften up units for combat) 1 Rock Lobster (Soften up units for combat)
Points: 2000/2000
I usually run my Trolls and Death Star up the center of the field, screened by an absurd amount of random bullshit to draw attention and leave the opponent in tatters before my line crashes with theirs. I am concerned that I only really have two combat units, and no real anvil to speak of. We are looking to escalate to 2400 points, and I am looking for advice as to what this list could add and/or remove to make space for improvements. My goal is to be competitive enough to stand up against things such as Nurgle WoC and heavy shooting/magic Skaven, while not being so powerful as to wipe them out without solid generalship. I very much enjoy Black Orcs, but am unsure of how to run them to compliment this list. I also feel like I have enough Goblin themed units, and too few Orc units (with just the one block and two characters inside.) I have purposefully not included a Black Orc character in my Savage Orc block to keep it from being too strong, but I am also not opposed to adding one, as the Animosity conundrum has reared its ugly head a few times. Any suggestions are welcome!
**Edited to provide more context for the list
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Post by jamesacon on Nov 7, 2022 20:25:49 GMT
Hey there,
I really like your list! It's very similar to what I will build once I get around to it haha. (Got 5 more armies to build out of 10!)
I think black orcs will compliment your list just fine. Maybe go a unit of 30, 6x5. That way you can turn the movement trays around to give you 5x6 for that extra rank if you need steadfast for longer.
Perhaps even put a black orc BSB in there instead of your savage orcs. Still keep the savage orc boss for challenges etc.
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Post by thielemann on Nov 9, 2022 23:30:11 GMT
The Squig Squad is fairly expensive as a warmachine hunter. The Night Goblin Big Boss with the Great Cave Squig (and charmed instead of enchanted shield in case the war machines try something) should be good to go on his own. Squig Hoppers as a unit aren't particularly cost-effective.
I would probably combine the Night Goblins into a larger unit and outfit them with netters to support the Trolls or Savage Orcs in close combat. But in any case I'd take away their musicians to save points. I always run my Night Goblin throwaway units as 5x4 which makes them surprisingly resilient against enemy chaff and smaller units which may have to deal with them being steadfast or winning combat due to the rank bonus. The extra arrows you'd get from being in 10x2 formation really don't make a difference. If you want to use them to give a rank bonus in your close combats with the trolls/orcs, field them as a bus with hand weapon and shield and netters to make them extra survivable.
If you go up to 2400 points, you have enough space in your rare allowance to upgrade the Trolls to River Trolls which I view as the better choice. Against normal enemies you reduce the amount of incoming attacks by 33% but if they fail their fear test, they lose 50% of their attacks (hitting on 6+).
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Post by Horace on Nov 9, 2022 23:58:50 GMT
Agreed, your list is a bit all eggs in the SO basket, which is a legitimate tactic I suppose but one which will easily come unstuck with some baited overruns or nukes. With units like that I would just hammer them with everything because the rest just melts away.
I would definitely combine the goblins and at least it gives you another somewhat legitimate unit
Whilst I enjoy River Trolls I never take them. Rare is too competitive
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Post by grandmasterwang on Nov 15, 2022 12:19:39 GMT
I really like the list and without a black orc character it's more thematic.
Moving up to 2400 I think a Night Goblin shaman with dispel scroll (helps vs skaven as you mentioned), additional doom diver and chariot (give you something with impact hits vs asf and another distraction and deployment drop for your mega block.
Great cave squig boss doesn't need to be with the hoppers to do his thing.
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Post by mcnuggs on Nov 15, 2022 16:19:44 GMT
I tweaked up my list and ran this at 2K points with MUCH more success:
Lords: Savage Orc Great Shaman, Level 4, Lucky Shrunken Head (255 Points)
Heroes: Black Orc Big Boss, BSB, Dragonhelm, Shield (127 Points) Goblin Big Boss, Giant Wolf, Light Armor, Shield, Short Bow (53 Points) Goblin Big Boss, Giant Wolf, Light Armor, Shield (51 Points)
Core: 20x Night Goblins, Short Bows, Musician (70 Points) 20x Night Goblins, Short Bows, Musician (70 Points) 38x Savage Orc BIG ONES, AHW, Musician, Banner (438 Points)
Special: 40x Black Orcs, Musician, Banner of Swiftness (515 Points) 6x Trolls (210 Points)
Rare: Doom Diver Catapult (80 Points) Mangler Squig (65 Points) Mangler Squig (65 Points)
Total: 1999/2000 Points
Compared to my previous list, this one is much more fun for me to pilot, and much more effective. The Black Orc horde provides a second legitimate threat that requires very little babysitting (Ld 8, ITP, no Animosity) and can cover an entire flank with one of the Goblin Wolf bosses and Manglers. The Night Goblins as 20 man shooters have been very effective for me- They plink off any warhounds or garbage chaff that looks to run into my squigs, and then they provide as big ol' redirectors for my Orc squads. Trolls are a seriously effective hero killing unit, especially ones with high armor- vomiting 6x on one model is very funny. They sit by my shaman (y'know, stupidity) and provide as a semi-anvil, semi-specialized-hammer for my Savage Orcs, which is very useful. I don't really miss my Savage Orc BSB, as he was more expensive, and worse in every way. I don't even really like his model as much as my converted Black Orc BSB. I went into the list with the "everyone brings a Black Orc BSB, I'm gonna be DIFFERENT!" mentality, and then rolled ones for animosity on my first turn 4 games in a row, and my death star was out of the fight for most of the game. I would definitely bring back the Savage Orc BSB, but only if I break up the horde of BIG ONES. I also find myself not particularly missing the Rock Lobster at this points value, as it only really served to deal with one high armored target. I feel that the Doom Diver, Black Orcs with Great Weapons, and the Trolls do this better.
When I move to 2500 Points, I plan on adding: A converted up Grimgor to my Black Orc Squad (Fighty fun character, makes my Black Orcs even scarier) Some fanatics to bring me up to core minimum (Not sorely missed, but boy are they fun) And the Rock Lobster.
Even though I have somewhat "figured out" my list, I would still love to hear feedback and advice. This game is amazing, and theorycrafting lists is good shit. Thanks again everyone!
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Post by grandmasterwang on Nov 16, 2022 7:58:01 GMT
I tweaked up my list and ran this at 2K points with MUCH more success: Lords:Savage Orc Great Shaman, Level 4, Lucky Shrunken Head (255 Points) Heroes:Black Orc Big Boss, BSB, Dragonhelm, Shield (127 Points) Goblin Big Boss, Giant Wolf, Light Armor, Shield, Short Bow (53 Points) Goblin Big Boss, Giant Wolf, Light Armor, Shield (51 Points) Core:20x Night Goblins, Short Bows, Musician (70 Points) 20x Night Goblins, Short Bows, Musician (70 Points) 38x Savage Orc BIG ONES, AHW, Musician, Banner (438 Points) Special:40x Black Orcs, Musician, Banner of Swiftness (515 Points) 6x Trolls (210 Points) Rare:Doom Diver Catapult (80 Points) Mangler Squig (65 Points) Mangler Squig (65 Points) Compared to my previous list, this one is much more fun for me to pilot, and much more effective. The Black Orc horde provides a second legitimate threat that requires very little babysitting (Ld 8, ITP, no Animosity) and can cover an entire flank with one of the Goblin Wolf bosses and Manglers. The Night Goblins as 20 man shooters have been very effective for me- They plink off any warhounds or garbage chaff that looks to run into my squigs, and then they provide as big ol' redirectors for my Orc squads. Trolls are a seriously effective hero killing unit, especially ones with high armor- vomiting 6x on one model is very funny. They sit by my shaman (y'know, stupidity) and provide as a semi-anvil, semi-specialized-hammer for my Savage Orcs, which is very useful. I don't really miss my Savage Orc BSB, as he was more expensive, and worse in every way. I don't even really like his model as much as my converted Black Orc BSB. I went into the list with the "everyone brings a Black Orc BSB, I'm gonna be DIFFERENT!" mentality, and then rolled ones for animosity on my first turn 4 games in a row, and my death star was out of the fight for most of the game. I would definitely bring back the Savage Orc BSB, but only if I break up the horde of BIG ONES. I also find myself not particularly missing the Rock Lobster at this points value, as it only really served to deal with one high armored target. I feel that the Doom Diver, Black Orcs with Great Weapons, and the Trolls do this better. When I move to 2500 Points, I plan on adding: A converted up Grimgor to my Black Orc Squad (Fighty fun character, makes my Black Orcs even scarier) Some fanatics to bring me up to core minimum (Not sorely missed, but boy are they fun) And the Rock Lobster. Even though I have somewhat "figured out" my list, I would still love to hear feedback and advice. This game is amazing, and theorycrafting lists is good shit. Thanks again everyone! I like it a lot but I'm a fan of Black Orcs in general. Bsb being a Black Orc makes a lot of sense given the horde. 40 Black Orcs is a scary ass unit. Did either horde ever get smashed in combat? If so, by what? Did you miss having the 4 fanatics at all from the first list version of the list?
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Post by mcnuggs on Nov 16, 2022 14:20:36 GMT
I tweaked up my list and ran this at 2K points with MUCH more success: Lords:Savage Orc Great Shaman, Level 4, Lucky Shrunken Head (255 Points) Heroes:Black Orc Big Boss, BSB, Dragonhelm, Shield (127 Points) Goblin Big Boss, Giant Wolf, Light Armor, Shield, Short Bow (53 Points) Goblin Big Boss, Giant Wolf, Light Armor, Shield (51 Points) Core:20x Night Goblins, Short Bows, Musician (70 Points) 20x Night Goblins, Short Bows, Musician (70 Points) 38x Savage Orc BIG ONES, AHW, Musician, Banner (438 Points) Special:40x Black Orcs, Musician, Banner of Swiftness (515 Points) 6x Trolls (210 Points) Rare:Doom Diver Catapult (80 Points) Mangler Squig (65 Points) Mangler Squig (65 Points) Compared to my previous list, this one is much more fun for me to pilot, and much more effective. The Black Orc horde provides a second legitimate threat that requires very little babysitting (Ld 8, ITP, no Animosity) and can cover an entire flank with one of the Goblin Wolf bosses and Manglers. The Night Goblins as 20 man shooters have been very effective for me- They plink off any warhounds or garbage chaff that looks to run into my squigs, and then they provide as big ol' redirectors for my Orc squads. Trolls are a seriously effective hero killing unit, especially ones with high armor- vomiting 6x on one model is very funny. They sit by my shaman (y'know, stupidity) and provide as a semi-anvil, semi-specialized-hammer for my Savage Orcs, which is very useful. I don't really miss my Savage Orc BSB, as he was more expensive, and worse in every way. I don't even really like his model as much as my converted Black Orc BSB. I went into the list with the "everyone brings a Black Orc BSB, I'm gonna be DIFFERENT!" mentality, and then rolled ones for animosity on my first turn 4 games in a row, and my death star was out of the fight for most of the game. I would definitely bring back the Savage Orc BSB, but only if I break up the horde of BIG ONES. I also find myself not particularly missing the Rock Lobster at this points value, as it only really served to deal with one high armored target. I feel that the Doom Diver, Black Orcs with Great Weapons, and the Trolls do this better. When I move to 2500 Points, I plan on adding: A converted up Grimgor to my Black Orc Squad (Fighty fun character, makes my Black Orcs even scarier) Some fanatics to bring me up to core minimum (Not sorely missed, but boy are they fun) And the Rock Lobster. Even though I have somewhat "figured out" my list, I would still love to hear feedback and advice. This game is amazing, and theorycrafting lists is good shit. Thanks again everyone! I like it a lot but I'm a fan of Black Orcs in general. Bsb being a Black Orc makes a lot of sense given the horde. 40 Black Orcs is a scary ass unit. Did either horde ever get smashed in combat? If so, by what? Did you miss having the 4 fanatics at all from the first list version of the list? For context, I ran this list twice against the same opponent (Khorne and Nurgle WoC.) The Fanatics were not really missed at all. My Night Goblins dealt with the Chaff that I was facing (Warhounds) more reliably, and the Manglers/Doom Diver got more work done as the "inflict random amount of big ol' hits" duders than my Fanatics had. I actually consider the 100 points from the Fanatics going towards my Goblin Wolf Bosses, which were AMAZING redirectors and annoyance units compared to what I was previously using (they remind me of my Ellyrian Reavers with the M9!) And for the question about the hordes, NO. The boyz absolutely CRUMPED the stuff they went against. This was largely due to target saturation caused by using my Chaff to create favorable fights, which is decidedly un-orc-y, but hey, I'm a kunnin' but brutal sort of guy. The Black Orcs made short work of a squad of 24 Nurgle Warriors, dealt back way more wounds than they took with the S7 GW, broke steadfast, and ran them down. They also fought very favorably (surprisingly) against my opponent's Juggernaut Bus (5 Khorne Juggernauts + Combat Hero BSB on Juggernaut,) punching through their armor with S7. Much like my Swordmasters, I believe that my perception of their usefulness is very harshly skewed by the fact that I take them against a list with no shooting. I fear that my Blorcs would have been not 40-man strong when they get into combat against a typical list, but in both of these cases, they were full strength when they made it into combat. For my Savage Orcs, they have time and time again impressed me with their insane damage output (BUCKETS of S5) and toughness (T4? In MY army? 5++ ward is really nice too,) and have basically shredded everything they have gone up against (besides one occurrence, more on this below.) I used my Troll block in a game last week to bait a charge from the big ol' squad of Wrathmongers, made them overrun due to Frenzy into my Savage Orc block, only took ~6 wounds (vs. 30 some attacks, hitting on 3+ wounding on 2+, idk how this worked either) before wiping them out. I think this unit is pretty good, but that is NOT a unique thought . The one time that they absolutely failed me was when I took a charge from the same Khorne Juggernaut bus that I was commenting on above, accepted his challenge with my BSB (I was on a hot streak, what can I say?) lost steadfast, and got ran down. That one stung because the game was absolutely in my favor before I positioned poorly and lost my BSB, but that's Fantasy, baby! Learning lesson.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Nov 17, 2022 3:37:37 GMT
Nice breakdowns and glad to see the Orcs smashing Chaos Warriors.
Nurgle Warriors are tough so the BOrcs did a great job there.
Very nice list.
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Post by jamesacon on Nov 17, 2022 4:47:19 GMT
Nice work on the wins and list looks great! I really like it, as I'm eventually building something similar.
I like your points about the 20 man archer goblins. I find that when I verse gobbos, it's easy for me to use chaff to pop the fanatics because they normally go for hand weapon shield combos.
My biggest and main army is WoC and beating nurgle warriors is a very good trade! You are right that your Blorcs will suffer more from ranged armies, but you can always not deploy in a horde to keep your ranks up.
Overall I really enjoyed reading your thought process and list evolution. Keep it up mate!
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