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Post by thorpyuk on Jan 29, 2023 14:53:58 GMT
Hi all, thoughts on this? I'm not familiar with many of the army lists in 8th, but for my two-penneth, I'm going to throw High Elf Swordmasters into the ring as (I believe) one of the most overpowered units in the game.
For just 13 points per model, you get:
M: 5
WS: 6
A: 2
Great weapon
ASF
Heavy armour
Martial prowess, giving an extra ranks worth of supporting attacks.
Just 24 of these wiped out 18 models from another unit that cost more points per model than them. They were improved vs the 7th edition with the addition of Martial Prowess, while at the same time had 2 points per man shaven off.
Way overpowered to my mind
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Post by vulcan on Jan 29, 2023 15:03:30 GMT
Prioritize your shooting better. With T3 and only 5+ save, Swordmasters die in droves to most shooting. DE Warlocks have to be on the list. S4 fast cav with two spells and a 4++ save is just plain nasty regardless of cost. It's why I love them so...  |
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Post by lordofskullpass on Jan 29, 2023 15:49:35 GMT
I agree with vulcan , High Elf Swordmasters are nasty when they reach combat, but can be shredded by shooting before they get there. The ultimate glass cannons. I would definitely say several units from the Warriors of Chaos book are the worst in terms of OP-ness - Throgg and Skullcrushers come to mind in particular, and I also think standard Chaos Warriors were made too cheap in 8th, for any Core unit that can render invalid any need to take one of its army's key Special units (Chosen) certainly needs rethinking. |
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Post by Darnok on Jan 29, 2023 17:02:49 GMT
One bad experience does not prove any unit overpowered.
My first question would be how the rest of your army looked. Followed by what the other unit in question was - and please, 24 Sword Masters have every right to come out on top of almost any 18 infantry short of Chosen. They are supposed to be killy and perform well once in close combat!
If any High Elf infantry has the right to be called overpowered it might be the Phoenix Guard. They start with an excellent profile and can be buffed to true Deathstar levels by magic and additional magic items.
As for other candidates on an "OP, plz nerf!" list, off the top of my head and in no particular order: - Frostheart Pheonix
- Doomfire Warlocks
- "Witch Star" (Witch Elves with Cauldron of Blood, plus shenanigans)
- "Gut Star" (Ironguts plus characters and shenanigans)
- Ironblaster (that move'n'fire chariot with a cannon more reliable than Dwarf warmachines with runes)
- a variety of Chaos Warrior character builds
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Post by thegoat on Jan 29, 2023 20:53:02 GMT
- Ironblaster (that move'n'fire chariot with a cannon more reliable than Dwarf warmachines with runes)
I vote Ironblaster as the most overpowered/undercosted unit in the game. It is head and shoulders better than every other cannon in the game. |
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Post by DiscoQing on Jan 29, 2023 21:50:39 GMT
Chaos Chariots.
First reason: Core choice.
Next reason, 2 WoC with Halberds, on a T5 model, with 3+ armour & 4 Wounds.
For 110 Points, you get 4 S5 WS5 attacks, 2 S4 attacks, + Scythed Impact Hits (and M8 Swiftstride).
For a maximum of +10pts, you can get Frenzy, -1 To be hit in combat, immune to Fear/Panic/Terror or a 6++.
Cheap enough to not care too much about, tough enough, and slashy enough to hold their own.
In a 2000 pt game you can take 5 as your entire core allowance, and laugh all the way victory.
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Post by wundapantz on Jan 29, 2023 23:53:50 GMT
Chaos chariots and ironblasters get thumbs up from me. as a 7th ed book, im not sure they count in this thread, but skaven slaves are auto-include because of how good they are with steadfast, strength in numbers, Inspiring Presence and stand your ground...
and you can shoot your cannons etc through them in combat...
they should have been special or had a unit cap to to them (0-2)
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Post by grandmasterwang on Jan 30, 2023 13:35:38 GMT
- Ironblaster (that move'n'fire chariot with a cannon more reliable than Dwarf warmachines with runes)
I vote Ironblaster as the most overpowered/undercosted unit in the game. It is head and shoulders better than every other cannon in the game. Ironblaster is overpowered but a Skullcannon is even worse balance wise as it's 35points cheaper and has a 5+ ward save. It's also unbreakable and immune to Psychology so you cannot panic one off the table in the same way you could an Ironblaster. Killing blow means it has a chance to kill cavalry which are good at killing Ironblasters. Swordmasters are very powerful but not imo 'OP' as they are only toughness 3 and there are certain matchups like a Chaos Dwarf Earthshaler Cannon/Dreadquake Mortar which kill them just as easily as if they were goblins. In pure combat they are monstrous but due to their expensiveness and fragility to shooting they aren't too unbalanced imo. |
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mcnuggs
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Post by mcnuggs on Jan 30, 2023 15:29:35 GMT
I think Swordmasters are absolutely OP, but only when we compare them to entries in other books like Bestigor (12 ppm) and Empire Greatswords (also 12 ppm) who suffer from the same weaknesses and have much worse stats (imo, Bestigor are S4 base but whatever.) So in these direct comparisons, of course they are very strong for their points, but the issue comes when we can then compare them even FURTHER to more optimized units like White Lions. With Martial Prowess, the 1 attack base has less of an impact, they're S4 base, Stubborn, and have a 3+ armor save vs. shooting, which really helps to nullify the main weakness mentioned in this thread.
I am of the mind that White Lions are not the MOST broken thing in the game, nor are Phoenix Guard, but they are definitely overtuned. Swordmasters are by far the least optimized of the three elite infantry choices, which is why they are my go-to in friendly games, and my staple unit- they are powerful, but they have their flaws.
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Post by lordofskullpass on Jan 30, 2023 15:50:48 GMT
- Ironblaster (that move'n'fire chariot with a cannon more reliable than Dwarf warmachines with runes)
I vote Ironblaster as the most overpowered/undercosted unit in the game. It is head and shoulders better than every other cannon in the game. Talking of Ogres, I find Leadbelchers were made far too reliable for what they can do, especially when you look at the old, far more fun and thematic 6th Edition rules for them. It's ridiculous that they can bypass all the to Hit penalties they would normally suffer when shooting cannons looted from other races, stuffed full of random weapons and generally used and abused in the Ogre encampment. I think that whenever they roll a 1 to hit, they should suffer D3 Strength 4, Armour Piercing hits as one Ogre's cannon blows up in his face (not as nasty as their misfiring rules in 6th Edition - D6 hits - because those perhaps made them too weak, but still there to represent the obvious hazards of mucking about with cannons made by other races). |
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Post by knoffles on Jan 30, 2023 21:30:14 GMT
I’m not sure that I’d consider many units overpowered. Probably the one that springs to mind are dark elf warlocks and that is mainly down to how good their two spells are.
What I do think, is that a number of unit’s are undercosted for what you get, which isn’t quite the same thing. Some get worse when they are paired with other models. Most of the ones that spring to mind have already been listed, Throgg, Chaos Chariots are near the top. White lions are good and should be a point or 2 more but they are only filthy once paired with the BOTWD and alarielle. That combo works with swordmasters too but not as effectively. I’m not a fan of the skull cannon/iron blaster but in fairness, like most games it’s when things are spammed that they become filth.
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Post by Naitsabes on Jan 30, 2023 22:24:13 GMT
brolocks for me as well. They are ridiculously efficient at blasting your army apart, always hitting the spot where it'll hurt the most. And then these little insults added to injury like them being no slouches in combat and virtually ignoring miscasts. it's a 'what were they thinking' kind of unit.
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Post by thorpyuk on Jan 31, 2023 15:28:01 GMT
Goblin doom-divers? Virtually a guaranteed S5 hit...
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Post by Grimfang Gogulk on Jan 31, 2023 20:56:38 GMT
I was agreeing with you on the Swordmasters, quite a deal, to say the least, for those points ina powerful army with loads of beneficial rules on top of savvy stats.. Makes me quite jealous when i look at my Black Orcs...
Doom Divers? Decent Rare unit, But OP? Dunno about that.. And as a whole - Orcs & Goblins aren´t exactly the most powerful army?
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Post by thegoat on Jan 31, 2023 21:06:57 GMT
Doom Divers? Decent Rare unit, But OP? Dunno about that.. And as a whole - Orcs & Goblins aren´t exactly the most powerful army? Doom Diver is quite reliable for the Orc & Goblin faction. Almost an auto include. But I don't think it is overpowered. |
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