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Post by quenelles84 on Mar 14, 2023 22:36:38 GMT
Recently played a game where I deployed a unit of 10 Knights with 1 Paladin and 1 Damsel.
During the game they got badly whipped in combat leaving just 3 knights (boo!)
The question was does this mean they were at 25% (3 out of 12) and therefore could only rally on double 1's
OR was the 'unit' in question simply the knight unit (3 out of 10) and therefore could rally on normal leadership.
My opponent seemed sure it was the former, so we went with that, but if that is correct how do you deal with characters entering / leaving the unit during the game?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Mar 15, 2023 8:37:56 GMT
The second option is correct.
BRB p. 24: "If the fleeing unit has been reduced in size to a quarter (25%) or less of the number of models with which it began the game, it can only pass its Rally test on a double 1, regardless of its Leadership value [...]" [Italics mine].
Although the BRB is not quite clear (and, indeed, even contradictory on this,) the game begins with deployment, and a unit, therefore, begins the game with the models it has at the time of its deployment. Since "normal" units are deployed first and characters last, the Knights have begun the game without the characters, since the latter only joined later.
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Post by IbnSeesAll on Mar 16, 2023 9:13:12 GMT
The second option is correct. BRB p. 24: "If the fleeing unit has been reduced in size to a quarter (25%) or less of the number of models with which it began the game, it can only pass its Rally test on a double 1, regardless of its Leadership value [...]" [ Italics mine]. Although the BRB is not quite clear (and, indeed, even contradictory on this,) the game begins with deployment, and a unit, therefore, begins the game with the models it has at the time of its deployment. Since "normal" units are deployed first and characters last, the Knights have begun the game without the characters, since the latter only joined later. What about in scenarios where characters are deployed at the same time as units e.g. Dawn Attack? |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Mar 16, 2023 10:13:07 GMT
Strictly speaking, the Dawn Attack deployment does not contradict the general rules for deployment. You just have to "state that the character will join the unit before rolling to see where the unit and character will deploy." So, you still can deploy the unit first, and then the character as part of that unit. Looking at it that way is certainly better, if only for reasons of consistency.
Compare also with the 7th BRB (p. 19), which, however, had two major differences:
1. "Less than 25%," instead of "25% or less" (funnily enough, that was also the case in the summary of rule in the 8th BRB p.25, which had to be corrected by an erratum).
2. No possibility to rally at all.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Mar 16, 2023 12:36:03 GMT
Of course, the most logical is simply to look at the number of models the unit has in your army list, but, unfortunately, that is not specified as such by any written rule. Hence my roundabout reasoning.
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Post by thegoat on Mar 16, 2023 13:28:07 GMT
So before anybody dies the unit has twelve out of ten models remaining? That seems... weird.
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Post by rahotep75 on Mar 16, 2023 13:47:44 GMT
So before anybody dies the unit has twelve out of ten models remaining? That seems... weird. No. Before anyone dies, the unit of 10 models has been joined by 2 characters. Characters, in general, provide a bonus to a unit. |
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Post by thegoat on Mar 16, 2023 14:32:16 GMT
So before anybody dies the unit has twelve out of ten models remaining? That seems... weird. No. Before anyone dies, the unit of 10 models has been joined by 2 characters. Characters, in general, provide a bonus to a unit. Then after nine models die the unit is one out of ten models, joined by two characters. So under 25%. |
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Post by rahotep75 on Mar 16, 2023 14:50:22 GMT
No. Before anyone dies, the unit of 10 models has been joined by 2 characters. Characters, in general, provide a bonus to a unit. Then after nine models die the unit is one out of ten models, joined by two characters. So under 25%. Did you read the original post? The 2 characters left or died, leaving 3 knights. Out of 10. Also, the character rules specifically say that the characters add to the count to determine if the unit is at or above 25% for purposes of rallying. So yes, if the two characters were still alive, a unit of 1 knight, joined by 2 characters for a total of 3 models out of the beginning 10. “CHARACTERS IN FLEEING UNITS If the character has joined a unit and this later flees, he will count towards working out if the unit is still at or above 25% of its initial numbers for the purposes of Rally tests. ” Excerpt From Warhammer: Rulebook (Interactive Edition) Games Workshop books.apple.com/us/book/warhammer-rulebook-interactive-edition/id781707568This material may be protected by copyright. |
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Post by thegoat on Mar 16, 2023 14:55:16 GMT
Then after nine models die the unit is one out of ten models, joined by two characters. So under 25%. Did you read the original post? The 2 characters left or died, leaving 3 knights. Out of 10. I miss-read the original post as one knight plus two characters remaining. |
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Post by sedge on Mar 16, 2023 16:14:38 GMT
What if just the two characters had survived? Or just one? Would they rally on their normal leadership in both those cases?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Mar 16, 2023 16:36:29 GMT
sedge: We touched upon this earlier: thegoat : Perhaps, perhaps not. It is not clear from the FAQ. Units, not models, take Break tests, and the new unit has not lost combat. Something similar occurs with fleeing. Imagine a fleeing unit with less than 25% left, where then all the R&F are killed, e.g. because of DT tests, and only a character remains, becoming a new unit. Does he now take a Panic test, or does he continue to flee? If the latter, he certainly would not need double ones to rally, since, as a new unit, it would be at 100%. Such questions are fairly obvious, and could/should have been addressed immediately.
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Post by johngg on Mar 21, 2023 15:11:43 GMT
The second option is correct. BRB p. 24: "If the fleeing unit has been reduced in size to a quarter (25%) or less of the number of models with which it began the game, it can only pass its Rally test on a double 1, regardless of its Leadership value [...]" [ Italics mine]. Although the BRB is not quite clear (and, indeed, even contradictory on this,) the game begins with deployment, and a unit, therefore, begins the game with the models it has at the time of its deployment. Since "normal" units are deployed first and characters last, the Knights have begun the game without the characters, since the latter only joined later. I have to question this on the following terms; It is clearly implied that deployment occurs before the game starts. Unless we chose not to read the "FIGHTING A WARHAMMER BATTLE" section [BRB pp204-.] chronologically, However I've never seen terrain placed AFTER deployment! Moreover it is not correct that ' "normal" units are deployed first and characters last,' this is not a rule implied or otherwise and only confuses what should be a straight forward answer to the OP, if you apply common sense.
Therefore, the starting number of models in the unit clearly 12. [10+2] and the unit has indeed been reduced to 25% of its starting numbers. |
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Post by johngg on Mar 21, 2023 15:29:42 GMT
What if just the two characters had survived? Or just one? Would they rally on their normal leadership in both those cases? The unit of Knights no longer exist. A new unit consisting of the 2 characters is, for want of another word, 'born' and I would hazard a guess that their unit count would be 2. Therefore if one was killed, the other would have to take a test requiring snake eyes! I think?! Someone shoot me down if I'm wrong here... If the above is the case best thing to do is to split them up asap, so if one dies the other will still have to take a panic test, but on their own, full Ld. |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Mar 21, 2023 17:02:17 GMT
I have to question this on the following terms; It is clearly implied that deployment occurs before the game starts. Unless we chose not to read the "FIGHTING A WARHAMMER BATTLE" section [BRB pp204-.] chronologically, However I've never seen terrain placed AFTER deployment! Well, if we do choose to read the "FIGHTING A WARHAMMER BATTLE" section (BRB p. 140 ff.), we discover that: BRB p. 142: "Before you deploy any of your Wizards, remember to generate their spells," or as BRB p. 28 specifies: "Each Wizard knows a number of spells equal to his level, chosen randomly at the start of each battle." BRB p. 149: "Reserves are not deployed at the start of the battle. Instead..." BRB p. 150: "Roll off to see who controls the watchtower at the start of the battle. The player that controls the tower may deploy..." Elsewhere we find: BRB p. 79: "Deployment special rules affect how a unit is set up at the start of the game." BRB p. 79: "A unit with the Ambushers rule does not deploy at the start of the battle. Instead..." BRB p. 389: "They enter at any point on the table edge of one of the three areas in which the player deployed his units at the start of the battle." Even the earlier identification of terrain is said to be at the start of the battle: BRB p. 117: "The effect of a piece of mysterious terrain is not decided at the start of the battle. Instead..." BRB p. 126: "As with other terrain elements, players should identify at the start of the game all pieces of terrain for which they are going to make use of the buildings rules given here." From the "FIGHTING A WARHAMMER BATTLE" section (BRB p. 142): "All characters must be deployed last, again taking up just one turn, but may be set up in separate locations or units in their deployment zone." |
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