|
|
Post by drsentry on Dec 26, 2023 21:28:15 GMT
Hey I need some help making a functional tomb kings army. I have been playing tk for just over a decade now so I know all the tricks but is there something I am not doing right?
For some context on what I have to fight it is usually Bretonnians, Empire, or Skaven all played by one of my friends. In my opinion he usually takes some kinds unfriendly lists like 50 empire halberdiers and demigryph knights, or 50 storm vermin with the bell and spams dreaded 13th all game as well as 50 plague monks. I either cant out maneuver the cavalry, get destroyed at range by spells or when i make it to combat I cant beat the damage output. I do win some combats but I can never get the spells I need to work.
My brother and girlfriend also play but I dont have as hard a time having an easy fight with then playing O&G and Daemons respectively
My usual lists are as follows
2,496pts
Lords: - 441pts
> Liche High Priest - 210pts
>LVL 4 - 35pts
> Hierophant
> lore: Nehekhara
> Tomb King - 231pts
> Great Weapon - 6pts
> Armour of Destiny - 50pts
> Dragon Bane Gem - 5pts
Heros:
> Necrotect - 75pts
> Dragonhelm - 10pts
> Ironcurse Icon - 5pts
> Liche Priest - 105pts
> Lore of Light
> LVL 2 - 35pts
Core: - 655 pts
> Skeleton Warriors x40 - 220pts
> Spears - 40pts
> Musician - 10pts
> Standard - 10pts
> Skeleton Chariots x3 - 185pts
> Musician - 10pts
> Standard - 10pts
> Skeleton Archers x40 - 250 pts
> Musician - 10pts
Special: - 820pts
> Tomb Guard x40 - 590pts
> Musician - 10pts
> Standard - 10pts
> Standard of the Undying Legion - 50pts
> Halberds - 80pts
> Necropolis Knights - 230pts
> Standard - 10pts
> Musician - 10pts
> Entombed - 15pts
Rare: - 400pts
> Casket of Souls - 135pts
> Hierotitan - 175pts
> Screaming Skull Catapult - 90pts
I usually use something like this, I own at least one unit of everything from the tk army book besides the scorpion and the carrions. I have tried to swap tomb guard out for ushabti but they always get shot off the board by cannons. Its gotten to the point where playing tomb kings just isnt fun anymore despite them being my favorite army. I do own other armies and I find myself using them more now.
|
|
|
|
Post by Horace on Dec 26, 2023 21:40:02 GMT
I'm not sure it's necessarily entirely a TK issue, sounds like your friend is insisting on power gaming against a lower level army. I'm not an expert on TK so guess you really need someone to help you build the dirtiest list possible
|
|
|
|
Post by drsentry on Dec 26, 2023 21:49:26 GMT
I'm not sure it's necessarily entirely a TK issue, sounds like your friend is insisting on power gaming against a lower level army. I'm not an expert on TK so guess you really need someone to help you build the dirtiest list possible youre probably right, I have been noticing that. The other armies I have were usually started because I couldn't find a way to compete with what he uses |
|
|
|
Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 26, 2023 23:17:26 GMT
The curse of the Pharaos upon him - or in other words dresntry...
|
|
|
|
Post by Luigino on Dec 27, 2023 3:32:29 GMT
Folding fortress.
But make it 40 storeys high and get 200 archers in there with Queen Khalida. And with Ptra's Incantation of Righteous Smiting you get to double your shots.
Not even joking, with certain opponents sometimes you have to fight fire with nuclear bombs.
200 (or 400!!!) poison shots hitting on 4s will do some serious damage to anything they don't just obliterate.
I edited this post to better reflect the fact that I had forgotten what queen khalida actually does.
|
|
|
|
Post by tileag on Dec 27, 2023 17:46:29 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by mcnuggs on Dec 27, 2023 21:17:45 GMT
It looks like you have all of the staples of a “strong” TK list, and I believe the issues might be more game-specific if this particular opponent plays strong lists. What do you find yourself struggling against? Mobility (more anti-chaff/chaff of your own?) Magic (maybe a dispel scroll on your level 2?) His big unit is stronger than yours (back to chaff and magic etc?)
Your list looks totally solid, and you have experience with the army so I doubt that you don’t understand the army strategy/role of your units/magic synergies etc…
Maybe an idea of the particular units/matchups that you struggle with in further detail would help!
|
|
|
|
Post by drsentry on Dec 28, 2023 14:31:12 GMT
Folding fortress. But make it 40 storeys high and get 200 archers in there with Queen Khalida. And with Ptra's Incantation of Righteous Smiting you get to double your shots. Not even joking, with certain opponents sometimes you have to fight fire with nuclear bombs. 200 (or 400!!!) poison shots hitting on 4s will do some serious damage to anything they don't just obliterate. I edited this post to better reflect the fact that I had forgotten what queen khalida actually does. can the folding fortress actually fit a unit that large? I have never used it before but it would be pretty funny to do this |
|
|
|
Post by Luigino on Dec 28, 2023 14:34:21 GMT
It fits 5 models per floor.
Now you can make the floors short, add additional lateral extensions, or just show up with a 4ft building and tell your opponent to suck it.
I'm usually all for fluff and thematic lists, but sometimes you face opponents that take pleasure only in the nastiest possible combination.
|
|
|
|
Post by drsentry on Dec 28, 2023 14:40:38 GMT
It looks like you have all of the staples of a “strong” TK list, and I believe the issues might be more game-specific if this particular opponent plays strong lists. What do you find yourself struggling against? Mobility (more anti-chaff/chaff of your own?) Magic (maybe a dispel scroll on your level 2?) His big unit is stronger than yours (back to chaff and magic etc?) Your list looks totally solid, and you have experience with the army so I doubt that you don’t understand the army strategy/role of your units/magic synergies etc… Maybe an idea of the particular units/matchups that you struggle with in further detail would help! I think you are correct in saying that its likely my match ups. I usually always get the spells I need but sometimes I just roll awfully in the magic phase. While 85% of the time my tomb guard connect with the unit the need to but I last like one turn then die due to unstable. I just cant get the spells I need to go off and trying to counter lore of light on halberdiers or fighting frenzy stormvermin with the bell is tough without the buffs. Thats not taking into account that when he plays bretonnia I cant choose my combats since he just sits right outside my charge range till hes ready then sends everything in. I either have to back up or sit exactly where I am and prepare for the worst. He usually will always take a block of 40-50 peasants and lore of life to put flesh to stone on. While I have the skeleton warriors they can hold a flank for a turn but they are either fighting against bretonnian knights, demi gryph knights, 50 plague monks, doom wheel or rat ogres. So I cant reliably buff them and the tomb guard. I also have the sphnix minatures but I never use them since they will die to a cannon, poison archers or a trebuchet in one turn. This could all be because of my positioning and how I am using the army on the tabletop. But its so frustrating playing the TK against stuff that I know are far superior with spells. How do you usually counter stuff like this? |
|
|
|
Post by grandmasterwang on Dec 28, 2023 15:10:58 GMT
It looks like you have all of the staples of a “strong” TK list, and I believe the issues might be more game-specific if this particular opponent plays strong lists. What do you find yourself struggling against? Mobility (more anti-chaff/chaff of your own?) Magic (maybe a dispel scroll on your level 2?) His big unit is stronger than yours (back to chaff and magic etc?) Your list looks totally solid, and you have experience with the army so I doubt that you don’t understand the army strategy/role of your units/magic synergies etc… Maybe an idea of the particular units/matchups that you struggle with in further detail would help! I think you are correct in saying that its likely my match ups. I usually always get the spells I need but sometimes I just roll awfully in the magic phase. While 85% of the time my tomb guard connect with the unit the need to but I last like one turn then die due to unstable. I just cant get the spells I need to go off and trying to counter lore of light on halberdiers or fighting frenzy stormvermin with the bell is tough without the buffs. Thats not taking into account that when he plays bretonnia I cant choose my combats since he just sits right outside my charge range till hes ready then sends everything in. I either have to back up or sit exactly where I am and prepare for the worst. He usually will always take a block of 40-50 peasants and lore of life to put flesh to stone on. While I have the skeleton warriors they can hold a flank for a turn but they are either fighting against bretonnian knights, demi gryph knights, 50 plague monks, doom wheel or rat ogres. So I cant reliably buff them and the tomb guard. I also have the sphnix minatures but I never use them since they will die to a cannon, poison archers or a trebuchet in one turn. This could all be because of my positioning and how I am using the army on the tabletop. But its so frustrating playing the TK against stuff that I know are far superior with spells. How do you usually counter stuff like this? Tomb Kings have very strong magic overall so you should be able to have a lot more success in the magic phase, especially vs the likes of Bretonia given you have both a Heirotitan and an additional Lvl 1. I didn't see a Dispel scroll in your list. I note that in your list the lvl 4 has no magic items. I really feel that if not giving him the 45 point ward save then either give him the Earthing Rod or an offensive magic item. I personally love Tomb Scorpions and vs Trebuchet they will be gold. Even the threat of them can create reactions which help you. Given your frustration with magic, I feel you should try playing a couple of games with Khatep the special character. Take a dispell scroll on the lvl 1 and keep the casket and Heirotitan. Warsphinx's are good. You mentioned them getting trebbed or cannoned off the board but if you have a Heirotitan and 2 Warsphinx they cannot get them all. Cannons you will struggle against but vs Bretonnians and their trebuchets you should be ok. Imo try to take 2 units of horse archers (or at least 1) to scout and a Tomb Scorpion for much better battlefield control. Keep the Necropolis Knights but don't entomb them. A tomb Scorpion can be the difference between that knight unit charge landing on you or being diverted for a turn. |
|
|
|
Post by grandmasterwang on Dec 28, 2023 15:16:04 GMT
How have you found the Standard of the Undying Legion to work with the Tomb Guard?
Do you think it has paid off in more games than not?
I personally found that I struggled to get utility from it due to shortage of powerdice (nice bound spells on Casket and Heirotitan would take precedence) as my actual Hierophant spell options meant it was better to take 3 extra tomb guard.
Does your opponent ever fail fear tests? These can help vs Bretonia depending on how he deploys/plays. His Bsb cannot be everywhere.
|
|
|
|
Post by grandmasterwang on Dec 28, 2023 15:19:53 GMT
If you are playing 40 Tomb Guard and you put the Necrotect (which your list has) with them (as well as the actual Tomb King?) I really cannot see how they are only lasting one turn and crumbling. That's a hell of a unit even without buffs. See my suggestion at bottom of post...if a unit of 40 is melting, why not take 35 instead?
I was just thinking that as you don't have Tomb Scorpion, you can substitute Tomb Swarms to delay/stall/frustrate the opponent by burrowing up getting in the way. 80 points could be the difference between that Frenzied Stormvermin horde hitting your lines or not.
The list you posted is nice but lacks disruption units which would make it harder to deal with.
If you dropped the Banner of Undying legion and 5 tomb guard along with Ebts on the Necropolis Knights you could take a Unit of Tomb Swarms and a Unit of Horse archers instead giving you 2 disruption units with which to annoy your opponent.
|
|
|
|
Post by drsentry on Dec 28, 2023 15:34:34 GMT
Tomb Kings have very strong magic overall so you should be able to have a lot more success in the magic phase, especially vs the likes of Bretonia given you have both a Heirotitan and an additional Lvl 1. I didn't see a Dispel scroll in your list. I note that in your list the lvl 4 has no magic items. I really feel that if not giving him the 45 point ward save then either give him the Earthing Rod or an offensive magic item. I personally love Tomb Scorpions and vs Trebuchet they will be gold. Even the threat of them can create reactions which help you. Given your frustration with magic, I feel you should try playing a couple of games with Khatep the special character. Take a dispell scroll on the lvl 1 and keep the casket and Heirotitan. Warsphinx's are good. You mentioned them getting trebbed or cannoned off the board but if you have a Heirotitan and 2 Warsphinx they cannot get them all. Cannons you will struggle against but vs Bretonnians and their trebuchets you should be ok. Imo try to take 2 units of horse archers (or at least 1) to scout and a Tomb Scorpion for much better battlefield control. Keep the Necropolis Knights but don't entomb them. A tomb Scorpion can be the difference between that knight unit charge landing on you or being diverted for a turn. That is some good advice, Ill be getting a tomb scorpion printed soon then. It is one of the few miniatures I don't own so that's probably why I never considered them. The horse archers I played around with a few times but my friend never takes any skirmishing units. So they dont really counter much outside of redirecting but most of his armies have enough shooting to clear them off the board in one turn. |
|
|
|
Post by drsentry on Dec 28, 2023 15:46:17 GMT
How have you found the Standard of the Undying Legion to work with the Tomb Guard? Do you think it has paid off in more games than not? I personally found that I struggled to get utility from it due to shortage of powerdice (nice bound spells on Casket and Heirotitan would take precedence) as my actual Hierophant spell options meant it was better to take 3 extra tomb guard. Does your opponent ever fail fear tests? These can help vs Bretonia depending on how he deploys/plays. His Bsb cannot be everywhere. I think it works pretty well but I usually either dont use it due to running out of dice, so I think I should probably swap it out. With those points Ill take some magic items on the lvl4 liche priest. Somehow he rarely fails fear checks. Now I am not sure if he is playing this rule correctly but the peasants get the leadership of any bretonnian knight unit within 6" of them so if those knights are also in range of the general the peasants are also ld10. Even his skaven pass their fear checks because he spreads frenzy out on 3 unit and just doesnt fight with the clan rats he uses. Myabe I am putting my stuff too close together making it easy for him to concentrate on my central things. I should probably correct myself and say that the tomb guard last on average one turn. but once im down to two ranks its game over for them. I get charged by both is grail knight unit and questing knight unit and when on the charge its quite devastating along with any shooting from the previous turn. Basically he shoots them till I have taken enough damage to be broken, and sits just inside my max charge range of 16". The unit I made above would hold off for at least two turns if it was a straight fight without shooting but against skaven its a slug fest of just taking wounds till he eventually beats me due to the bell giving the whole unit supporting attacks. Then I have to try and actually kill the bell with them since its unbreakable and wont flee. Against empire its kinda the same way but he will have a level 4 lore of light wizard and also a lvl 2 lore of life and the tomb guard with no armor is taking raw damage, being hit on 3s with the luminarch near by makes it even easier for him to put out the damage. |
|
