Post by gregwarhamsters on May 20, 2017 21:58:44 GMT
I'm looking at making up some sige rules as there are none that allow players to actually play. the badlands shows too many dice and starts too close for me. Seriously, take a tower which moves 8" and is 8" away and you go first?? on 1 or is it 6 the wheels fall off...
I want a game to PLAY.
anyway, discussed various things and there will of course be different ways of playing, usually depending on what side of the wall you're sitting but people will try and break the system - it's in our nature as gamers, nothing persoanl but we try to gain an advantage.
~~~~~~~~ My set of rules. ~~~~~~~~
This is missing my comments on the footnotes but here's an untested idea around the siege rules. I'd like it to be based around some of the aspects of 8th - after all this is the system we're playing so combat etc needs to reflect that. The high cost of the siege machines I quiet like but I actually want to PLAY rather than just roll a die and say your towers dead. I know there will be adjustments from here on in but the bones of the rules are here. I'll expend over time the rules for mining, moats and rations (and any other suggestions) but I feel these are extra's that you can infact play notionally.
Army composition : A ratio of 2:1 seems acceptable, siege equipment can be bought from a free pool to the equivalent value of your army, this is balanced by the fact the defender has a castle and spends very little on castle upgrades, after all this is a prepared defensive position. The attacking force however doesn’t have the same luxury, they have no doubt moved into an area that the defender has cleared of any suitable materials to facilitate ideal siege weapons. They will therefore pay a premium for siege equipment.
Deployment : Armies should be deployed 16” apart. This is measured from the base of castle to the attacker’s deployment zone.
Movement : Battle field movement is not restricted any more than normal, the proximity of enemy troops inside or outside the castle wall does not restrict march moves at all. Troops inside the castle can move between sections as long as there is a means of access. The walls can be accessed from the court yard via ladders or from doors on the towers. Usually towers cannot be accessed from ground level and can only be accessed from a castle wall.
Flyers present a unique problem and while they can land on walls or towers they won’t be able to get inside a tower section. Cavalry cannot be used on any wall or tower section, the one exception are units with the wall crawler rule (such as spiders) but these still cannot occupy a tower section.
Units can assault once they reach the wall and not before, they are assumed to be able to reach the top of the wall/tower in a single move, there is no need to randomly determine the charge distance.
Magic : Magic missiles and direct damage spells usually auto hit their targets within range, they cannot if the target is concealed otherwise spells are treated as usual.
If directed against the walls the castle has been constructed with degrees of magical resistance.
Shooting : Shooting into the castle should be extremely difficult due to affordable cover for the defender, however the supply of missiles (rocks, arrows etc) should limit the defenders ability to shoot at distant enemies.
Combat : The assault of the castle is a real commitment, the forces inside are literally fighting for their lives and those assaulting know they’re likely to fall to their deaths if they don’t take the battlements. Each side will have an assault part of 10 models and the step up rule will apply.
Assaulting the castle.
Towers and Walls:
Defenders are allowed to make a stand and shoot reaction with any rocks, boulders or oil (burning or otherwise) irrespective of whether or not they can normally (such as undead) these weapons have the quick to fire rule. In combat the attacker is subject to the defended obstacle rule and strike at -1 to hit in combat unless they assault from a siege tower. Flyers are not subject to this restriction as they land on the battlements rather than have to fight to get over them. Defenders count as stubborn during the assault but if the attackers push them back (and gain a foot hold on the tower or wall) the stubborn rule is rescinded.
Models on the battlements count as in hard cover and they’re also in a skirmish formation so the attackers will be at -3 to hit at short range, -4 to hit at long range. Models shooting from the battlements count all ranges as half range or less irrespective of actual range. Models shooting from battlements to towers suffer -3 to hit while those shooting from towers downwards do so as normal. Troops may count as concealed and cannot be hit from the outside of the castle, they cannot fire back though. Shots against a gate house (sniping the gate) while allowable the gate is in fact a deliberately smaller target, shots fired against the gate will miss to the left on a 1-2 d6, right 5-6 d6 and hit dead centre on a 3-4 d6.
Combat resolution: Standards, ranks, who charged doesn’t matter at all. Combat is worked out on who inflicted the most amount of casualties and who holds an adjoining section of the castle. Either side may claim a bonus of +1 if they hold (uncontested) a section to either the left or right of the section they’re currently on.
(Example: 10 Attacks assault the gatehouse, they fight 10 defenders including a unit champion. The gate house is flanked by two towers to the left and right. The attacks inflict 7 casualties while the defenders manage 6. However as the defenders hold the adjoining section of the castle they +2 to the resolution so it’s now 8-7 so the defenders win and push the attackers back.)
Attacker’s siege equipment (cost per unit)
Grappling hooks: (50 points) the defenders can attempt to cut the ropes of the attackers before the assault. Roll a D6 for every eligible defender (maximum of 10) on a 5-6 the hook has been cut away and the attacker (selected at random) cannot climb this turn. They are not a casualty as it’s deemed they were unable to climb the rope rather than fall from it. The attacker isn’t the most stable so until they gain a foot hold they’re fighting at half their weapon skill (rounded down) and at -3 to their initiative (during combat only) They also lose 1 attack (to a minimum of 1 (as they have to hold the rope in some manner) In addition, the attackers in the first round cannot use two handed or paired weapons, they may not use a shield so cannot parry or use this as part of their armour save. The defenders fight as normal.
Ladders: (100 points) the defenders can attempt to repel the ladders of the attackers before the assault. Roll a D6 for every eligible defender (maximum of 10) on a 6 the ladder has been pushed away from the wall and an attacker (selected at random) cannot climb this turn. They are not a casualty as it’s deemed they were unable to climb the ladder rather than fall from it. If the defender is armed with a halberd they may add one to the repel roll, 5-6 on a D6. Eg 10 Defenders try to repel 10 attackers, they manage to roll two 6’s so the attackers can now only attack with 8 models that turn. The attacker isn’t the most stable so until they gain a foot hold they’re fighting at half their weapon skill (rounded down) and at -3 to their initiative (during combat only) In addition, the attackers in the first round cannot use two handed or paired weapons, they may however still parry if armed with a shield as it’s assumed that they carry that above their head as they climb the ladder. The defenders fight as normal.
Mantlets: (100 points) troops may hide behind these to reduce the effectiveness of missile fire from the castle. These count as hard cover but troops behind these cannot march the mantlet forward.
Braziers: (100 points) the units missile weapons have the flaming rule (cannot be selected by black powder weapons).
Log ram: (250 points) carried by the troops, ideal for attacking gates (M-1 S8 D3 wounds) troops have to move into contact with the structure and cannot charge it.
Battering ram: (500 points) a wheeled battering ram has the same movement rate as those creatures pushing it. It cannot march. (S9 D3 wounds, T7 W5)
Siege tower: (1000 points) a wheeled siege tower has the same movement rate as those creatures pushing it. It cannot march. Highly likely they won’t be as high as the towers but able to be level with the battlements. Both attacker and defender fight as normal with all the normal combat rules applying, each side can select 10 members to make up the assault party per section. (T8 W6 )
Defending the castle:
Towers and Walls: Defenders are allowed to make a stand and shoot reaction with any rocks, boulders or oil (burning or otherwise) irrespective of whether or not they can normally (such as undead) these weapons have the quick to fire rule. In combat the attacker is subject to the defended obstacle rule and strike at -1 to hit in combat unless they assault from a siege tower. Flyers are not subject to this restriction as they land on the battlements rather than have to fight to get over them. In addition ethereal units will struggle to pass through the barrier (require a 6 on a d6 to pass through) Spells destroying the walls will do it section at a time so a wall will be reduced to a breached status while a tower will lose a single level and be treated as a wall section before being reduced to a breached status.
Gate: T8 W6
Wall: T10 W12 (see page 2 for details) but if a wall is reduced to zero wounds it counts as breached, they still count as defended obstacle (-1 to hit) but the defenders are no longer stubborn.
Tower: T10 W18 (see page 2 for details) but if a wall is reduced to 12 wounds it counts as a wall, if further reduced to zero wounds it counts as breached, they still count as defended obstacle (-1 to hit) but the defenders are no longer stubborn.
Defenders siege equipment (cost per unit)
Braziers: (50 points) the units missile weapons have the flaming rule (cannot be selected by black powder weapons).
Boulders: (100 points) Type Range STR Special
Rocks 1” 3 Quick to fire. (2d6 auto hits)
Burning oil: (250 points) Type Range STR Special
Oil 3” 4 Quick to fire. Armour piercing. (3d6 auto hits)
Reinforced gate: (300 points) T8 W7
Bolt thrower: (500 points) BS as per the core warrior choice of that particular army.
I want a game to PLAY.
anyway, discussed various things and there will of course be different ways of playing, usually depending on what side of the wall you're sitting but people will try and break the system - it's in our nature as gamers, nothing persoanl but we try to gain an advantage.
~~~~~~~~ My set of rules. ~~~~~~~~
This is missing my comments on the footnotes but here's an untested idea around the siege rules. I'd like it to be based around some of the aspects of 8th - after all this is the system we're playing so combat etc needs to reflect that. The high cost of the siege machines I quiet like but I actually want to PLAY rather than just roll a die and say your towers dead. I know there will be adjustments from here on in but the bones of the rules are here. I'll expend over time the rules for mining, moats and rations (and any other suggestions) but I feel these are extra's that you can infact play notionally.
Army composition : A ratio of 2:1 seems acceptable, siege equipment can be bought from a free pool to the equivalent value of your army, this is balanced by the fact the defender has a castle and spends very little on castle upgrades, after all this is a prepared defensive position. The attacking force however doesn’t have the same luxury, they have no doubt moved into an area that the defender has cleared of any suitable materials to facilitate ideal siege weapons. They will therefore pay a premium for siege equipment.
Deployment : Armies should be deployed 16” apart. This is measured from the base of castle to the attacker’s deployment zone.
Movement : Battle field movement is not restricted any more than normal, the proximity of enemy troops inside or outside the castle wall does not restrict march moves at all. Troops inside the castle can move between sections as long as there is a means of access. The walls can be accessed from the court yard via ladders or from doors on the towers. Usually towers cannot be accessed from ground level and can only be accessed from a castle wall.
Flyers present a unique problem and while they can land on walls or towers they won’t be able to get inside a tower section. Cavalry cannot be used on any wall or tower section, the one exception are units with the wall crawler rule (such as spiders) but these still cannot occupy a tower section.
Units can assault once they reach the wall and not before, they are assumed to be able to reach the top of the wall/tower in a single move, there is no need to randomly determine the charge distance.
Magic : Magic missiles and direct damage spells usually auto hit their targets within range, they cannot if the target is concealed otherwise spells are treated as usual.
If directed against the walls the castle has been constructed with degrees of magical resistance.
Shooting : Shooting into the castle should be extremely difficult due to affordable cover for the defender, however the supply of missiles (rocks, arrows etc) should limit the defenders ability to shoot at distant enemies.
Combat : The assault of the castle is a real commitment, the forces inside are literally fighting for their lives and those assaulting know they’re likely to fall to their deaths if they don’t take the battlements. Each side will have an assault part of 10 models and the step up rule will apply.
Assaulting the castle.
Towers and Walls:
Defenders are allowed to make a stand and shoot reaction with any rocks, boulders or oil (burning or otherwise) irrespective of whether or not they can normally (such as undead) these weapons have the quick to fire rule. In combat the attacker is subject to the defended obstacle rule and strike at -1 to hit in combat unless they assault from a siege tower. Flyers are not subject to this restriction as they land on the battlements rather than have to fight to get over them. Defenders count as stubborn during the assault but if the attackers push them back (and gain a foot hold on the tower or wall) the stubborn rule is rescinded.
Models on the battlements count as in hard cover and they’re also in a skirmish formation so the attackers will be at -3 to hit at short range, -4 to hit at long range. Models shooting from the battlements count all ranges as half range or less irrespective of actual range. Models shooting from battlements to towers suffer -3 to hit while those shooting from towers downwards do so as normal. Troops may count as concealed and cannot be hit from the outside of the castle, they cannot fire back though. Shots against a gate house (sniping the gate) while allowable the gate is in fact a deliberately smaller target, shots fired against the gate will miss to the left on a 1-2 d6, right 5-6 d6 and hit dead centre on a 3-4 d6.
Combat resolution: Standards, ranks, who charged doesn’t matter at all. Combat is worked out on who inflicted the most amount of casualties and who holds an adjoining section of the castle. Either side may claim a bonus of +1 if they hold (uncontested) a section to either the left or right of the section they’re currently on.
(Example: 10 Attacks assault the gatehouse, they fight 10 defenders including a unit champion. The gate house is flanked by two towers to the left and right. The attacks inflict 7 casualties while the defenders manage 6. However as the defenders hold the adjoining section of the castle they +2 to the resolution so it’s now 8-7 so the defenders win and push the attackers back.)
Attacker’s siege equipment (cost per unit)
Grappling hooks: (50 points) the defenders can attempt to cut the ropes of the attackers before the assault. Roll a D6 for every eligible defender (maximum of 10) on a 5-6 the hook has been cut away and the attacker (selected at random) cannot climb this turn. They are not a casualty as it’s deemed they were unable to climb the rope rather than fall from it. The attacker isn’t the most stable so until they gain a foot hold they’re fighting at half their weapon skill (rounded down) and at -3 to their initiative (during combat only) They also lose 1 attack (to a minimum of 1 (as they have to hold the rope in some manner) In addition, the attackers in the first round cannot use two handed or paired weapons, they may not use a shield so cannot parry or use this as part of their armour save. The defenders fight as normal.
Ladders: (100 points) the defenders can attempt to repel the ladders of the attackers before the assault. Roll a D6 for every eligible defender (maximum of 10) on a 6 the ladder has been pushed away from the wall and an attacker (selected at random) cannot climb this turn. They are not a casualty as it’s deemed they were unable to climb the ladder rather than fall from it. If the defender is armed with a halberd they may add one to the repel roll, 5-6 on a D6. Eg 10 Defenders try to repel 10 attackers, they manage to roll two 6’s so the attackers can now only attack with 8 models that turn. The attacker isn’t the most stable so until they gain a foot hold they’re fighting at half their weapon skill (rounded down) and at -3 to their initiative (during combat only) In addition, the attackers in the first round cannot use two handed or paired weapons, they may however still parry if armed with a shield as it’s assumed that they carry that above their head as they climb the ladder. The defenders fight as normal.
Mantlets: (100 points) troops may hide behind these to reduce the effectiveness of missile fire from the castle. These count as hard cover but troops behind these cannot march the mantlet forward.
Braziers: (100 points) the units missile weapons have the flaming rule (cannot be selected by black powder weapons).
Log ram: (250 points) carried by the troops, ideal for attacking gates (M-1 S8 D3 wounds) troops have to move into contact with the structure and cannot charge it.
Battering ram: (500 points) a wheeled battering ram has the same movement rate as those creatures pushing it. It cannot march. (S9 D3 wounds, T7 W5)
Siege tower: (1000 points) a wheeled siege tower has the same movement rate as those creatures pushing it. It cannot march. Highly likely they won’t be as high as the towers but able to be level with the battlements. Both attacker and defender fight as normal with all the normal combat rules applying, each side can select 10 members to make up the assault party per section. (T8 W6 )
Defending the castle:
Towers and Walls: Defenders are allowed to make a stand and shoot reaction with any rocks, boulders or oil (burning or otherwise) irrespective of whether or not they can normally (such as undead) these weapons have the quick to fire rule. In combat the attacker is subject to the defended obstacle rule and strike at -1 to hit in combat unless they assault from a siege tower. Flyers are not subject to this restriction as they land on the battlements rather than have to fight to get over them. In addition ethereal units will struggle to pass through the barrier (require a 6 on a d6 to pass through) Spells destroying the walls will do it section at a time so a wall will be reduced to a breached status while a tower will lose a single level and be treated as a wall section before being reduced to a breached status.
Gate: T8 W6
Wall: T10 W12 (see page 2 for details) but if a wall is reduced to zero wounds it counts as breached, they still count as defended obstacle (-1 to hit) but the defenders are no longer stubborn.
Tower: T10 W18 (see page 2 for details) but if a wall is reduced to 12 wounds it counts as a wall, if further reduced to zero wounds it counts as breached, they still count as defended obstacle (-1 to hit) but the defenders are no longer stubborn.
Defenders siege equipment (cost per unit)
Braziers: (50 points) the units missile weapons have the flaming rule (cannot be selected by black powder weapons).
Boulders: (100 points) Type Range STR Special
Rocks 1” 3 Quick to fire. (2d6 auto hits)
Burning oil: (250 points) Type Range STR Special
Oil 3” 4 Quick to fire. Armour piercing. (3d6 auto hits)
Reinforced gate: (300 points) T8 W7
Bolt thrower: (500 points) BS as per the core warrior choice of that particular army.
