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Post by Horace on May 7, 2019 9:49:28 GMT
Tbh I think WoC are getting a bit of a bad rap in the other thread. True they are a decent beginner army because they are undeniably strong and since their shooting phase is not far from non-existent they are quick to teach, but the only reason I feel they are regarded as OP is because they have a couple of cheese builds that have gained netlist notoriety. Chariot Spam and Daemon Princes, I am looking at you.
If you put WoC up against someone who half knows what they are doing it should not be a foregone conclusion in my eyes. Perhaps my view is warped by the fact I don't really play completely min/max people who basically field the same lists over and over. HE/DE & WoC are all high value, elite armies who are particularly susceptible to being nuked by various units/items/spells. I would not be particularly scared of fighting any of them with any of the other armies.
Also regarding Dwarfs, I think they are a little more than just shooting and close combat, I think the 8th book did a good job in giving them some mobility. If only they hadn't passed up the opportunity of a decent Anvil...
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Post by DiscoQing on May 7, 2019 11:02:21 GMT
If uncomped, and purely competitive, I'd list them as follows...
Tier 1 Dark Elves Warriors of Chaos Daemons of Chaos Skaven
Tier 2 Vampire Counts Lizardmen Chaos Dwarfs Wood Elves
Tier 3 High Elves Ogre Kingdoms Empire Dwarfs
Tier 4 Orcs & Goblins Bretonnia Beastmen Tomb Kings
Tiers 2 & 3 could be 1 tier, I just split them up for my personal ranking.
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Post by mottdon on May 7, 2019 12:42:17 GMT
If uncomped, and purely competitive, I'd list them as follows... Tier 1 Dark Elves Warriors of Chaos Daemons of Chaos Skaven Tier 2 Vampire Counts Lizardmen Chaos Dwarfs Wood Elves Tier 3 High Elves Ogre Kingdoms Empire Dwarfs Tier 4 Orcs & Goblins Bretonnia Beastmen Tomb Kings Tiers 2 & 3 could be 1 tier, I just split them up for my personal ranking. Lol, I think you accidentally switched HE and DoC! š (Just kidding, anyone is welcome to their opinion!) I think LoSP brought up some excellent points in the other thread, specifically about their Warriors. Simply put, the WoC basic troop plays like a rare option. Any army that has a strong option like that as a core choice, will inevitably be strong. I personally think that this is a great way to measure an army's effectiveness overall. Yes, there are a great many other factors that can come into play, but leaving out tactics, I'd say that WoC are the strongest army in the game. And that was my whole point. They really don't require tactics to win. Every army has cheesy builds (well, most do) and can be abused in games, but WoC, in my opinion, is one army that WILL be hard to beat even with a normal build. (Ogres, Lizardmen and Dwarfs are some others in this same consideration). People love to compare how strong HE and DE are, but both of those armies require a LOT of tactics, magic and shooting in order to win.
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Post by sedge on May 7, 2019 13:08:57 GMT
Warriors of Chaos are definitely in the top tier - a lot of my games when learning WFB were against them (and very painful, even though I was playing the 7th ed DE book back then), I then had a friend who loved the unkillable Nurgle Daemon Prince for a long time, and in the last few years I've played WoC myself - I think WoC have been involved in more of my games than any other army, so I get that they're potentially extremely hard to play against. However, I don't get the emphasis on the basic Chaos Warriors themselves. Yes, model for model, each is incredibly good. However, that's reflected in their points cost - they might be as good as an equivalent Rare choice, but they cost at least the same, which is why you rarely see more than 18 in a unit. They're not all that fast, their leadership isn't spectacular, and actually within a WoC army they're one of the easier aspects to address. It's the Daemon Princes (with pet Chimeras), Disclords, Gorebeast Chariots, Skullcrushers and so on that make WoC so nasty - tough, extremely killy, and highly mobile, making them much harder to counter. I think I also need to play Knoffles with a DE army, so he can see they're more than just WE hordes/Peg masters/dual Hydras (try triple Hydras  )
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on May 7, 2019 14:46:53 GMT
Warriors of Chaos are definitely in the top tier - a lot of my games when learning WFB were against them (and very painful, even though I was playing the 7th ed DE book back then), I then had a friend who loved the unkillable Nurgle Daemon Prince for a long time, and in the last few years I've played WoC myself - I think WoC have been involved in more of my games than any other army, so I get that they're potentially extremely hard to play against. However, I don't get the emphasis on the basic Chaos Warriors themselves. Yes, model for model, each is incredibly good. However, that's reflected in their points cost - they might be as good as an equivalent Rare choice, but they cost at least the same, which is why you rarely see more than 18 in a unit. They're not all that fast, their leadership isn't spectacular, and actually within a WoC army they're one of the easier aspects to address. It's the Daemon Princes (with pet Chimeras), Disclords, Gorebeast Chariots, Skullcrushers and so on that make WoC so nasty - tough, extremely killy, and highly mobile, making them much harder to counter. I think I also need to play Knoffles with a DE army, so he can see they're more than just WE hordes/Peg masters/dual Hydras (try triple Hydras  ) I think this is precisely right!!! WoC are extremely powerful, but they are not without weaknesses. Their leadership and spell casting is mediocre... and besides the Hellcannon they have no shooting. They are also very expensive. It is really a few key builds that give them a really bad name (especially the DP, Chimera and most notably the Hortennse Lord). When people say that WoC require no tactics to win that is outright false. They are easier to field than other armies, but once the skill of the opposition increases, the skill of the WoC player must increase accordingly. Let's take one of the most effective WoC combat units, Skullcrushers. Sure, point for point they will beat most other units of equivalent value in close combat. However, if they are frenzy baited or chaff forced to overrun they can be made to be useless. That relies on the tactics of the opponent, but the PREVENTION of that relies on the tactics of the WoC player. The same can be said for just about any WoC unit except for the three I mentioned above. While WoC are tougher and more armoured than HE, HE have outstanding magic and leadership. They also have a couple of the most broken magic items in all of warhammer. Their troops might not be tough/armoured, but you can get an easy 3+ ward save on their Phoenix Guard, so what does it matter. They also have a great flying monster and army wide ASF across the board.
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Post by lordofskullpass on May 7, 2019 14:48:33 GMT
However, I don't get the emphasis on the basic Chaos Warriors themselves. Yes, model for model, each is incredibly good. However, that's reflected in their points cost - they might be as good as an equivalent Rare choice, but they cost at least the same, which is why you rarely see more than 18 in a unit. They're not all that fast, their leadership isn't spectacular, and actually within a WoC army they're one of the easier aspects to address. I believe the main problem with Chaos Warriors as they are is that even with the points cost, they are too good to be a core unit - the fact that WoC players can spam such a strong close combat unit to their heart's content (indeed they are forced to take at least 25% of their points' worth of them) is what makes them OP. I mean, it would be easy to make them less OP but also show the Chaos Warriors' elite status - have a look at the following profile below: M WS BS S T W I A Ld 4 4 4 4 4 1 4 1 8
The main change I've made is reduced their attacks to 1 minimum - they're humanoids without any features other than a hand weapon to attack with, so they should by all accounts have 1 attack. Note that they can still be given extra hand weapons and Mark of Khorne to increase their maximum number of attacks to 3 each - I think this is plenty for a core unit.
I've also reduced their weapon skill to 4, as 4 is still the same weapon skill of Dwarfs and Elves, which is still far superior to a man of the Empire or Skaven Clanrat. Of course I also think that Marauders should also get this Weapon Skill penalty so that they're weapon skill 3, as we can't have full-blown Chaos Warriors not being more skilled than a lowly Marauder, but at the same time the Marauders are simple barbarian warriors - sure they're rough tough fellows who are handy with an axe, but would a simple barbarian like a Marauder be as skilled as a Dwarf or Elf, the former probably having trained for around 20-30 years, the latter ten times that (assuming Warhammer Elves are immortal like Middle Earth Elves)? I don't think so, especially as Marauders are little more than Ancient Germans with a Chaos taint and a Conan-type aesthetic.
I've also reduced their initiative to 4, which still doesn't do much to halt the advantage they have over Dwarfs and Ogres, but at least it gives Elf spearmen more of a chance to do something before being hacked to death. In any case, would a fully-armoured Chaos Warrior be as athletic as an Elf? Certainly not. Firstly they've got the weight of their super-heavy armour to contend with, and secondly they're more likely mutated humans than mutated Elves, and so they've got relative human slowness - after all they are Movement 4 rather than Movement 5.
Of course this will require a slight points reduction - I imagine around 12 pts per model would work.
One final thing is that if the Great Weapon option was removed from Warriors, this would give Chosen more viability, especially if they kept the original Chaos Warrior profile - then they would be actual elite troops rather than a more expensive Chaos Warrior with great weapon. Also if anyone already has Great Weapon warriors, there's nothing to stop them saying that they are Chosen if these profile changes come round - they look practically identical as it is.
I don't think this solves everything about WoC being OP, but I like to think it's a nudge in the right direction.
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on May 7, 2019 14:50:48 GMT
lordofskullpass : did you vote in the poll? If so, what 4 armies did you vote for?
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Post by lordofskullpass on May 7, 2019 15:01:00 GMT
I've only made 3 votes currently - WoC, High Elves and Ogres. I know many say that Ogres aren't that OP, but personally I just haven't found a way to crack them yet. If I do find a way, I might change my vote.
Conversely many say that Dark Elves are OP, but I haven't actually played them and don't know many of their rules so I can't say for sure. I do know that they were one of the armies that unfairly got two White Dwarfs' worth of miniatures rather than the single month's release like Warriors of Chaos (and also Vampire Counts) and if it wasn't for GW's favouritism towards them one of Bretonnia or Beastmen could have got a book and an update, but I don't think I can make a proper judgment without reading their army book and rules.
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Post by sedge on May 7, 2019 16:02:43 GMT
I've only made 3 votes currently - WoC, High Elves and Ogres. I know many say that Ogres aren't that OP, but personally I just haven't found a way to crack them yet. If I do find a way, I might change my vote. Conversely many say that Dark Elves are OP, but I haven't actually played them and don't know many of their rules so I can't say for sure. I do know that they were one of the armies that unfairly got two White Dwarfs' worth of miniatures rather than the single month's release like Warriors of Chaos (and also Vampire Counts) and if it wasn't for GW's favouritism towards them one of Bretonnia or Beastmen could have got a book and an update, but I don't think I can make a proper judgment without reading their army book and rules. It's not really relevant to the topic, but I wanted to point out that the only reason Dark Elves had two months of releases in 8th Edition is that they brought forward the DE models originally planned to accompany the End Times: Khaine book (e.g. the Cauldron of Blood, and I think the Witch Elves too). That's why that was the only End Times book not to have an accompanying model release. With DEs getting their 8th Ed book relatively late in the cycle they must have figured it better to just get all their planned models for them released and start selling them straight away, rather than wait for the End Times to hit. Doesn't really change that DEs did well out of 8th Ed for models, but it puts it into some perspective when you look at the fact that VC effectively got 2 months of releases too, and WoC... three (ET: Glottkin and Archaon).
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Post by lordofskullpass on May 7, 2019 16:48:49 GMT
I've only made 3 votes currently - WoC, High Elves and Ogres. I know many say that Ogres aren't that OP, but personally I just haven't found a way to crack them yet. If I do find a way, I might change my vote. Conversely many say that Dark Elves are OP, but I haven't actually played them and don't know many of their rules so I can't say for sure. I do know that they were one of the armies that unfairly got two White Dwarfs' worth of miniatures rather than the single month's release like Warriors of Chaos (and also Vampire Counts) and if it wasn't for GW's favouritism towards them one of Bretonnia or Beastmen could have got a book and an update, but I don't think I can make a proper judgment without reading their army book and rules. It's not really relevant to the topic, but I wanted to point out that the only reason Dark Elves had two months of releases in 8th Edition is that they brought forward the DE models originally planned to accompany the End Times: Khaine book (e.g. the Cauldron of Blood, and I think the Witch Elves too). That's why that was the only End Times book not to have an accompanying model release. With DEs getting their 8th Ed book relatively late in the cycle they must have figured it better to just get all their planned models for them released and start selling them straight away, rather than wait for the End Times to hit. Doesn't really change that DEs did well out of 8th Ed for models, but it puts it into some perspective when you look at the fact that VC effectively got 2 months of releases too, and WoC... three (ET: Glottkin and Archaon). Didn't know that - Dark Elves were first updated in September 2013 and got a second wave the following month, while End Times was the following year. That actually seems surprising to me because the Witch Elves and Cauldron of Blood both appeared in September rather than October - Doomfire Warlocks definitely came out in October and possibly Dreadspears too. However, Vampire Counts and WoC still both got 2 even before End Times (Vampire Counts got releases in August 2011 and January 2012, the latter being when they got their updated book, and WoC got releases in November 2012 and January 2013, again the latter being when they got their book). Two of those months could easily have been used for Bretonnia and Beastmen - GW were just too spineless to give them the attention they deserved.
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Post by crownprinceimrik on May 7, 2019 17:27:18 GMT
Everyone always says that there was supposed to be a Dark Elf release with End Times Khaine but they moved it up. I find that really hard to believe, though, was that ever actually confirmed or was it just rumors? The supposed Witch Elf/Cauldron release didn't follow the pattern of Nagash/Glottkin/Thanquol and also the Witch Elves and Cauldron essentially don't feature in Khaine at all.
I voted for Dark Elves, High Elves, WoC, and Skaven. I think most people agree with those, so I won't go into explanations.
I'm also not so sure that Chaos Warriors are really an issue. Most competitive lists I've seen either don't use Chaos Warriors or only use them as a bunker. Their stats are astoundingly good (too good imo from fluff). As others have mentioned they get extremely expensive with points very quickly, their units are usually small, and their leadership is nothing special. The number one reason I think they aren't a serious issue is that they are only M4. That's just average infantry speed and more importantly for the success of the army, all of the other good units, like Chariots, Chaos Knights, Chimeras, Daemon Princes, Disc Lords, etc, are much faster. The infantry have trouble supporting the rest of the army which means they aren't all that competitive.
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Post by knoffles on May 7, 2019 18:21:44 GMT
lordofskullpass I think the WS on marauders and warriors is ok. Marauders are meant to all be seasoned warriors that live for fighting from a young age (yes Iām reading the wulfrik books at the minute š) so to give them the same WS as a lowly standard human seems wrong and warriors are elites so their WS matches most others armies elites. The current WS then nicely follows onto the characters WS. A basic Warriors is 14pts a model. That is the same as a hammerer. Yes one is core vs special but bar initiative the stats are fairly similar (hammerers get great weapons (so +2S & ASL, -1 save, stubborn and +1 LD). After upgrading your warriors they are likely to be at least 17pts (2pts for the marks and at least a Shield). I think the main issue with warriors core is that the marauders cost too much in comparison to a warrior (especially if kitted our reasonably). If they were cheaper then you would definitely see them fielded more often. I believe this is a direct result of rules overcompensation from the previous edition.
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Post by sedge on May 7, 2019 18:37:17 GMT
Everyone always says that there was supposed to be a Dark Elf release with End Times Khaine but they moved it up. I find that really hard to believe, though, was that ever actually confirmed or was it just rumors? The supposed Witch Elf/Cauldron release didn't follow the pattern of Nagash/Glottkin/Thanquol and also the Witch Elves and Cauldron essentially don't feature in Khaine at all. I think it came from reliable rumour-mongers (Harry or Hastings from Warseer) who had contacts within GW and a long track-record of knowing what was going on. The Cauldron also fronted up the 2nd of the Khaine books - a spot otherwise reserved for their flagship new models (Nagash, Glottkin etc.). Given how hurriedly those books were written (certainly after the Nagash one) I think that Hellebron's role was reduced due to the model release being brought forward.
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Post by TheGreatHornedRat on May 7, 2019 18:58:10 GMT
I don't think that WoC deserve the hate that they're getting. They've ALWAYS been an army of elite psychopaths who wander down from the north to maim burn and kill and then once they're inevitably stopped, the survivors return back home to brood and plot their next attempt. Warriors have great stats sure, but you just can't look at them compared to what's in other books, you have to look at them compared to what's in THEIR book. Marauders are better than your average human (I'm sure they learn to fight and kill long before "normal" humans do hence their better than normal human stats) and Warriors are elite compared to them. Something that's often overlooked - Warriors in the second and beyond ranks are paying for an attack that they don't get to use because of the way supporting attacks work. They're actually not nearly as "points efficient" as other units with only a single attack from other army books. lordofskullpass "I've also reduced their initiative to 4, which still doesn't do much to halt the advantage they have over Dwarfs and Ogres, but at least it gives Elf spearmen more of a chance to do something before being hacked to death. In any case, would a fully-armoured Chaos Warrior be as athletic as an Elf? Certainly not. Firstly they've got the weight of their super-heavy armour to contend with, and secondly they're more likely mutated humans than mutated Elves, and so they've got relative human slowness - after all they are Movement 4 rather than Movement 5." Elves still get to swing first, with their rerolls. If your Initiative is EQUAL TO OR GREATER than that of your foe then you get your rerolls. If you're going to arbitrarily nerf Chaos Warriors due to these "real life reasons" than you need to do the same thing to Empire/Bretonnian characters and units. If there's no reason that these frenzied barbarians from the north who fight and war amongst each other and neighboring kingdoms all the time can't be justified as having WS4 because of the greater races such as dwarves and elves, then there's no reason that an empire swordsman, or a greatsword, or a knight should have that WS4 either. And that I5 that those Empire/Bretonnian characters rock? Guess that's unbelievable in the grand schema of dwarf and elf stats too so might as well nerf them. While we're talking about Elves - can we please talk about how amazing it is that they get to reroll their hits EVERY SINGLE ROUND OF COMBAT? Warriors of Chaos are ONE bad combat away (unlucky dice) from breaking and being run-down; they almost NEVER have the numbers to be/break steadfast - they have to rely on their great stats and armor to wear down their foes over multiple turns of combat. Elves however almost NEVER have to worry about a bad round of combat as their innate special rules keep them consistently outputting average damages.
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Post by crownprinceimrik on May 7, 2019 19:17:54 GMT
I don't think that WoC deserve the hate that they're getting. They've ALWAYS been an army of elite psychopaths who wander down from the north to maim burn and kill and then once they're inevitably stopped, the survivors return back home to brood and plot their next attempt. While we're talking about Elves - can we please talk about how amazing it is that they get to reroll their hits EVERY SINGLE ROUND OF COMBAT? Warriors of Chaos are ONE bad combat away (unlucky dice) from breaking and being run-down; they almost NEVER have the numbers to be/break steadfast - they have to rely on their great stats and armor to wear down their foes over multiple turns of combat. Elves however almost NEVER have to worry about a bad round of combat as their innate special rules keep them consistently outputting average damages. I think a lot of the WoC hate is really down to three things: the Mark of Nurgle, the Tzeentch Disc Lord, and the Nurgle Daemon Prince. The nigh-invulnerable and unstoppable Disc Lord and Daemon Prince really make people hate WoC because they just cannot be killed and as they fly are nearly impossible to block up with chaff and stuff like that. People don't like units that are virtually unkillable (that's why the BotWD is so universally despised). The Mark of Nurgle is also insanely good. I'd argue that it's probably a bit too cheap for what it does, but that's just my opinion.
I also frequently hear the complaint about ASF being too good because of the rerolls, but that's something I'd disagree with. It is good, there's no doubt about that, and Elves hit A LOT when they are in combat, but those hits for the most part are very weak. 90% of all elves are base S3 which really is bad. Elven rerolls are great but they need those rerolls to have any chance. Elves hit a lot, but each hit doesn't do much. Other races tend to hit less, but each hit hurts more. Your one bad combat example for WoC is the same for elves, except instead of having trouble hitting they have trouble wounding. Elves are good, there's no doubt, and that's why I voted for DE and HE to be in the top tier, but I think that for the most part they require player skill and a good list structure to win their games. If elves get stuck in a bad combat they are doomed, they have very very little grinding power, I've made that mistake many many times.
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