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Post by TheGreatHornedRat on May 7, 2019 19:37:20 GMT
I don't think that WoC deserve the hate that they're getting. They've ALWAYS been an army of elite psychopaths who wander down from the north to maim burn and kill and then once they're inevitably stopped, the survivors return back home to brood and plot their next attempt. While we're talking about Elves - can we please talk about how amazing it is that they get to reroll their hits EVERY SINGLE ROUND OF COMBAT? Warriors of Chaos are ONE bad combat away (unlucky dice) from breaking and being run-down; they almost NEVER have the numbers to be/break steadfast - they have to rely on their great stats and armor to wear down their foes over multiple turns of combat. Elves however almost NEVER have to worry about a bad round of combat as their innate special rules keep them consistently outputting average damages. I think a lot of the WoC hate is really down to three things: the Mark of Nurgle, the Tzeentch Disc Lord, and the Nurgle Daemon Prince. The nigh-invulnerable and unstoppable Disc Lord and Daemon Prince really make people hate WoC because they just cannot be killed and as they fly are nearly impossible to block up with chaff and stuff like that. People don't like units that are virtually unkillable (that's why the BotWD is so universally despised). The Mark of Nurgle is also insanely good. I'd argue that it's probably a bit too cheap for what it does, but that's just my opinion.
I also frequently hear the complaint about ASF being too good because of the rerolls, but that's something I'd disagree with. It is good, there's no doubt about that, and Elves hit A LOT when they are in combat, but those hits for the most part are very weak. 90% of all elves are base S3 which really is bad. Elven rerolls are great but they need those rerolls to have any chance. Elves hit a lot, but each hit doesn't do much. Other races tend to hit less, but each hit hurts more. Your one bad combat example for WoC is the same for elves, except instead of having trouble hitting they have trouble wounding. Elves are good, there's no doubt, and that's why I voted for DE and HE to be in the top tier, but I think that for the most part they require player skill and a good list structure to win their games. If elves get stuck in a bad combat they are doomed, they have very very little grinding power, I've made that mistake many many times.
All great and valid points! I'm used to being on the receiving end of elves as skaven though and those "only" S3 hits from the elves suddenly mean a lot more  And elves have pretty potent magic to boost those important combats - I had a unit of spears chew through THIRTY ONE stormvermin once in a single go, all thanks to that #6 Lore of Shadow spell. Man...I hate being on the receiving end of lore of shadow... |
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Post by crownprinceimrik on May 7, 2019 20:46:08 GMT
Mindrazor is a beautiful thing. Almost tailor made for Elves.  |
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on May 7, 2019 21:06:36 GMT
Quite a revival of this thread. Shall we revive its two sister threads (mid and low tier)?
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Post by grandmasterwang on May 8, 2019 3:09:18 GMT
There's some good debate going on in here and it certainly reflects WOC and Elves being top tier.
On the topic of WOC I certainly agree that they are powerful but the only real nerf we impose on them is that the Daemon Prince is stubborn like the DOC one as it should never have been unbreakable when a Greater Daemon isn't.
WOC can imo be considered top tier relatively objectively as they have something good or quality in basically every option as i see it.
Infantry
Cavalry
Monstrous Infantry
Monstrous Cavalry
Artillery
Monsters
Characters
Flying units
Chariots
Spell Casters
Redirectors
Not many armies can say the same and a few don't even have some of the options listed above (ie Dwarfs and the 7th edition hold overs)
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on May 8, 2019 5:00:00 GMT
There's some good debate going on in here and it certainly reflects WOC and Elves being top tier. On the topic of WOC I certainly agree that they are powerful but the only real nerf we impose on them is that the Daemon Prince is stubborn like the DOC one as it should never have been unbreakable when a Greater Daemon isn't. I think it is pretty obvious that HE, DE and WoC rule the top 3. The DP is extremely problematic for armies that can't field cannons. Overall, I'd say that the Hortennse Lord is even better as that 1+ 3++ rr1 save combo is pretty tough to beat. The re-rolling of ward saves of 1 in conjunction with a 3+ ward is a bit broken to say the least. |
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Post by grandmasterwang on May 8, 2019 5:24:51 GMT
There's some good debate going on in here and it certainly reflects WOC and Elves being top tier. On the topic of WOC I certainly agree that they are powerful but the only real nerf we impose on them is that the Daemon Prince is stubborn like the DOC one as it should never have been unbreakable when a Greater Daemon isn't. I think it is pretty obvious that HE, DE and WoC rule the top 3. The DP is extremely problematic for armies that can't field cannons. Overall, I'd say that the Hortennse Lord is even better as that 1+ 3++ rr1 save combo is pretty tough to beat. The re-rolling of ward saves of 1 in conjunction with a 3+ ward is a bit broken to say the least. That lord build is ridiculous I agree but the difference to me is that it can't output the same damage in certain matchups due to no thunderstomp and can be broken and run down. |
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Post by strutsagget on May 8, 2019 5:47:45 GMT
There's some good debate going on in here and it certainly reflects WOC and Elves being top tier. On the topic of WOC I certainly agree that they are powerful but the only real nerf we impose on them is that the Daemon Prince is stubborn like the DOC one as it should never have been unbreakable when a Greater Daemon isn't. I think it is pretty obvious that HE, DE and WoC rule the top 3. The DP is extremely problematic for armies that can't field cannons. Overall, I'd say that the Hortennse Lord is even better as that 1+ 3++ rr1 save combo is pretty tough to beat. The re-rolling of ward saves of 1 in conjunction with a 3+ ward is a bit broken to say the least. The main problem with Hortennse is fitting a spell caster. So you need to run 3000p or over if running 25% H/L. |
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Post by knoffles on May 8, 2019 7:48:20 GMT
There's some good debate going on in here and it certainly reflects WOC and Elves being top tier. On the topic of WOC I certainly agree that they are powerful but the only real nerf we impose on them is that the Daemon Prince is stubborn like the DOC one as it should never have been unbreakable when a Greater Daemon isn't. WOC can imo be considered top tier relatively objectively as they have something good or quality in basically every option as i see it. Infantry Cavalry Monstrous Infantry Monstrous Cavalry Artillery Monsters Characters Flying units Chariots Spell Casters Redirectors Not many armies can say the same and a few don't even have some of the options listed above (ie Dwarfs and the 7th edition hold overs) That is basically how I rate armies. It’s the breadth of useable options and how effective those options are. You could argue that ogres and Beastmen aren’t dissimilar to warriors in play style as they are also primarily ‘bashy’ armies and both can put out some strong builds but I’d argue both are far more one dimensional and thus easier to counter (also why I put Bret’s a lower tier). Having a great core option also helps elevate armies meaning they don’t really have a core tax. It’s another reason why I rate DEs (witches) & Warriors (warriors). Dwarves have great core options but I put them as middle because again they are limited with builds. High elves are an odd one for me. They have good core, I wouldn’t necessarily say great but they have an amazing diversity in core and again these options help bump them up to top tier. Warriors are top tier in my eyes because of the choices they have. I also think they are quite a forgiving army and the easiest to pick up and use. That isn’t to say master but if you have two relatively new players and one had warriors I know who I’d put my money on. |
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Post by Horace on May 8, 2019 8:28:20 GMT
There's some good debate going on in here and it certainly reflects WOC and Elves being top tier. On the topic of WOC I certainly agree that they are powerful but the only real nerf we impose on them is that the Daemon Prince is stubborn like the DOC one as it should never have been unbreakable when a Greater Daemon isn't. Agreed, although the nerf I would dish out is Daemonic Instability like DoC However, I don't get the emphasis on the basic Chaos Warriors themselves. Yes, model for model, each is incredibly good. However, that's reflected in their points cost - they might be as good as an equivalent Rare choice, but they cost at least the same, which is why you rarely see more than 18 in a unit. They're not all that fast, their leadership isn't spectacular, and actually within a WoC army they're one of the easier aspects to address. I believe the main problem with Chaos Warriors as they are is that even with the points cost, they are too good to be a core unit - the fact that WoC players can spam such a strong close combat unit to their heart's content (indeed they are forced to take at least 25% of their points' worth of them) is what makes them OP. I mean, it would be easy to make them less OP but also show the Chaos Warriors' elite status - have a look at the following profile below: M WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 4 4 4 4 1 4 1 8
The main change I've made is reduced their attacks to 1 minimum - they're humanoids without any features other than a hand weapon to attack with, so they should by all accounts have 1 attack. Note that they can still be given extra hand weapons and Mark of Khorne to increase their maximum number of attacks to 3 each - I think this is plenty for a core unit.
I've also reduced their weapon skill to 4, as 4 is still the same weapon skill of Dwarfs and Elves, which is still far superior to a man of the Empire or Skaven Clanrat. Of course I also think that Marauders should also get this Weapon Skill penalty so that they're weapon skill 3, as we can't have full-blown Chaos Warriors not being more skilled than a lowly Marauder, but at the same time the Marauders are simple barbarian warriors - sure they're rough tough fellows who are handy with an axe, but would a simple barbarian like a Marauder be as skilled as a Dwarf or Elf, the former probably having trained for around 20-30 years, the latter ten times that (assuming Warhammer Elves are immortal like Middle Earth Elves)? I don't think so, especially as Marauders are little more than Ancient Germans with a Chaos taint and a Conan-type aesthetic.
I've also reduced their initiative to 4, which still doesn't do much to halt the advantage they have over Dwarfs and Ogres, but at least it gives Elf spearmen more of a chance to do something before being hacked to death. In any case, would a fully-armoured Chaos Warrior be as athletic as an Elf? Certainly not. Firstly they've got the weight of their super-heavy armour to contend with, and secondly they're more likely mutated humans than mutated Elves, and so they've got relative human slowness - after all they are Movement 4 rather than Movement 5.
Of course this will require a slight points reduction - I imagine around 12 pts per model would work.
One final thing is that if the Great Weapon option was removed from Warriors, this would give Chosen more viability, especially if they kept the original Chaos Warrior profile - then they would be actual elite troops rather than a more expensive Chaos Warrior with great weapon. Also if anyone already has Great Weapon warriors, there's nothing to stop them saying that they are Chosen if these profile changes come round - they look practically identical as it is.
I don't think this solves everything about WoC being OP, but I like to think it's a nudge in the right direction.I think it's slightly odd you feel so strongly about Chaos Warriors, they are not generally regarded as the broken bit of WoC. The really dirty lists tend to have the core all taken up with Chariot spam. A vanilla CW comes in at 14 points and for that you get Elven WS and decent S/T/I. Their biggest benefit to me is the Chaos Armour and ability to mark (at extra points ofc). A Savage Orc Big 'Un comes in at only 11 points with the additional hand weapon and a relatively similar statline plus 3 attacks. Some obvious drawbacks reflected in the lesser points. A Dwarf Longbeard has a similar profile minus an attack and lesser I at 12 points, but does gain a series of rules. Daemonettes have a very similar stat line with 1 less S/T for 11 points... Chaos Warriors are an excellent Core option no doubt but they are priced accordingly. If you think they are too cheap, perhaps, but not by a long way as I have pointed out above. However, Vampire Counts and WoC still both got 2 even before End Times (Vampire Counts got releases in August 2011 and January 2012, the latter being when they got their updated book, and WoC got releases in November 2012 and January 2013, again the latter being when they got their book). Two of those months could easily have been used for Bretonnia and Beastmen - GW were just too spineless to give them the attention they deserved. I don't disagree a Brets book and a chunky FAQ to leave the game done would have been a very decent thing for GW to have left us with, at least recognising a big chunk of their customers. It takes more than a month in White Dwarf for them to churn out a book and all the models to go with it though. If you want to blame anything for the neglect fantasy got blame 40k & 30k |
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Post by lordofskullpass on May 8, 2019 10:03:00 GMT
I don't think that WoC deserve the hate that they're getting. They've ALWAYS been an army of elite psychopaths who wander down from the north to maim burn and kill and then once they're inevitably stopped, the survivors return back home to brood and plot their next attempt. The problem is that in the game at least, it's so difficult to stop them because they're so OP! Elves still get to swing first, with their rerolls. If your Initiative is EQUAL TO OR GREATER than that of your foe then you get your rerolls. OK, I didn't have my Warhammer Fantasy rulebook with me at the time I wrote my previous post, and I didn't know Always Strikes First works with equal initiatives as well as higher initiatives. If you're going to arbitrarily nerf Chaos Warriors due to these "real life reasons" than you need to do the same thing to Empire/Bretonnian characters and units. If there's no reason that these frenzied barbarians from the north who fight and war amongst each other and neighboring kingdoms all the time can't be justified as having WS4 because of the greater races such as dwarves and elves, then there's no reason that an empire swordsman, or a greatsword, or a knight should have that WS4 either. And that I5 that those Empire/Bretonnian characters rock? Guess that's unbelievable in the grand schema of dwarf and elf stats too so might as well nerf them. I agree about the Swordsmen (they're peasant rabble little better than Bretonnian men at arms) but the Greatsword and Knight examples you've also included are elite troops in the army they come from and characters have to be seasoned veterans in order to reach their positions of power - this is ample justification of their higher Weapon Skill and Initiative. I was strictly talking about the run-of-the-mill troops that frequent the Core slots of armies and essentially represent the typical fighters of each race. While we're talking about Elves - can we please talk about how amazing it is that they get to reroll their hits EVERY SINGLE ROUND OF COMBAT? Warriors of Chaos are ONE bad combat away (unlucky dice) from breaking and being run-down; they almost NEVER have the numbers to be/break steadfast - they have to rely on their great stats and armor to wear down their foes over multiple turns of combat. Elves however almost NEVER have to worry about a bad round of combat as their innate special rules keep them consistently outputting average damages.[/quote] While we're talking about Elves - can we please talk about how amazing it is that they get to reroll their hits EVERY SINGLE ROUND OF COMBAT? Warriors of Chaos are ONE bad combat away (unlucky dice) from breaking and being run-down; they almost NEVER have the numbers to be/break steadfast - they have to rely on their great stats and armor to wear down their foes over multiple turns of combat. Elves however almost NEVER have to worry about a bad round of combat as their innate special rules keep them consistently outputting average damages. I also frequently hear the complaint about ASF being too good because of the rerolls, but that's something I'd disagree with. It is good, there's no doubt about that, and Elves hit A LOT when they are in combat, but those hits for the most part are very weak. 90% of all elves are base S3 which really is bad. Elven rerolls are great but they need those rerolls to have any chance. Elves hit a lot, but each hit doesn't do much. Other races tend to hit less, but each hit hurts more. Your one bad combat example for WoC is the same for elves, except instead of having trouble hitting they have trouble wounding. Elves are good, there's no doubt, and that's why I voted for DE and HE to be in the top tier, but I think that for the most part they require player skill and a good list structure to win their games. If elves get stuck in a bad combat they are doomed, they have very very little grinding power, I've made that mistake many many times.
This is exactly right. Yes, Elves do get to strike first and re-roll hits, but this is balanced out by the fact that they have only 1 attack each and, against Chaos Warriors, they need 5s to wound, which, coupled with Chaos Warriors' 3+ save and 6+ parry save (assuming they're using hand weapons and shields) results in very few casualties. The Chaos Warriors on the other hand get to wound their enemy on 3s and inflict a -1 armour save penalty due to being Strength 4, meaning, unless the Elves are Bleakswords, they will be relying on a mere 6+ save. The Chaos Warriors also get 2 attacks (3 with Mark of Khorne) for all the chaps in the front row, meaning that they can blitz through an equivalently-sized Elf unit. Sure they might have a bad attack round, but it's unlikely when they need 3s to hit and wound, and they'd have to be extremely unlucky to also get a bad armour saving round against the Elves' attacks. This then leads back to what I said about Elf factions being good but generally only good because they've got such good tactics available - if they use these tactics to best effect they can run over an opponent easily, but if they use these tactics incorrectly and end up getting into combats they don't want, they can lose pretty badly because all Elf units are T3. There's some good debate going on in here and it certainly reflects WOC and Elves being top tier. On the topic of WOC I certainly agree that they are powerful but the only real nerf we impose on them is that the Daemon Prince is stubborn like the DOC one as it should never have been unbreakable when a Greater Daemon isn't. I think it is pretty obvious that HE, DE and WoC rule the top 3. The DP is extremely problematic for armies that can't field cannons. Overall, I'd say that the Hortennse Lord is even better as that 1+ 3++ rr1 save combo is pretty tough to beat. The re-rolling of ward saves of 1 in conjunction with a 3+ ward is a bit broken to say the least. I agree that that is crazy OP in most circumstances - he can't even be easily one-shotted with cannons, but I would say though that an Oldblood Cowboy with Blade of Realities, light armour and shield could easily take the Hortennse Lord down - the Blade of Realities ignores both armour and ward saves, so the Hortennse lord doesn't get any save against the Oldblood, and because he has used up all his points on defensive magic items, the Oldblood still gets a 2+ armour save counting in the -2 armour save penalty from being Strength 5 (Scaly Skin 4+, light armour, shield, mounted and thick skinned comes to effectively 0+ - the -2 penalty raises this to 2+ save). Put him in a Saurus Cavalry bus and send them off after the Hortennse Lord, and if you can charge him it's game over for the Hortennse lord. Admittedly that is a counter only available to one army, but any army can try to distract the Hortennse lord with any well-armoured unit of T4 troops - Ironbreakers, Black Orcs e.t.c - as that would then be a slow deadlock combat that the WoC player would be forced to send more of his units into to try and break that deadlock, because as mentioned before the Hortennse Lord has no magic items that improve his attack power and relies solely on his crazy-level defence. |
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Post by DiscoQing on May 8, 2019 10:11:35 GMT
High elves are definitely mid tier.
High in the list of mid tier, but definitely not top tier...
They're a 1 item army.
Without that item, they will not be nearly as good. As such, they suffer from "avoid that 1 unit, kill everything else"
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Post by crownprinceimrik on May 8, 2019 11:12:06 GMT
I think it is pretty obvious that HE, DE and WoC rule the top 3. The DP is extremely problematic for armies that can't field cannons. Overall, I'd say that the Hortennse Lord is even better as that 1+ 3++ rr1 save combo is pretty tough to beat. The re-rolling of ward saves of 1 in conjunction with a 3+ ward is a bit broken to say the least. The main problem with Hortennse is fitting a spell caster. So you need to run 3000p or over if running 25% H/L. See, that's why the Chaos lists I've fought against run a Disc Hero. Take an Exalted Hero on a Disc with Mark of Tzeentch, Third Eye, Talisman of Preservation, Enchanted Shield, and a Great Weapon. Then you also bring a Nurgle Daemon Prince. It's a dirty list, but massively effective.
An Oldblood cowboy with the Blade of Realities will be very very hard pressed against a properly built Disc Lord. If it's actually a Chaos Lord, not the above Hero I mentioned, the Oldblood will be hitting on 4s and wounding on 4s averaging just about 1-1.5 wounds per combat phase. The riposte will be ugly. Most, if not all, Disc Lords are built with a weapon to increase strength. A great weapon is a favored option, I prefer the Ogre Blade. Getting the 1+, 3++ rerolling 1s is very easy, it costs just the 45 pt Talisman of Preservation and 5 pt Enchanted Shield. Your other points then go into a magic weapon if you'd like, the Ogre Blade being fantastic. That means hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s, and the cowboy at best gets a 5+ armor against that. If the Chaos Lord has a Great Weapon, the fight could be down to luck but I'd bet on the Chaos Lord, if he's got the Ogre Blade to keep his initiative up, the cowboy dies. Add in to that the issue that the Disc Lord is much more maneuverable than a Cowboy and is immune to all the things that the Cowboy fears: spells and artillery will frighten the cowboy but not the Disc. It's also worth pointing out that you cannot improve an armor save past 1+. Even if it would theoretically be a 0+, you cannot get it better than 1+.
@discoqing I'd hotly debate the idea that High Elves need the BotWD to be competitive and top tier. The banner is good, no doubt, but Phoenix Guard, Frosthearts, Star Dragons, Silver Helm buses, Repeater Bolt Throwers, Swordmasters in the right conditions, and White Lions will give any opponent a hard time. I myself have never played the Banner and while I'm not the best player in the game, I've beaten the Disc Hero + Daemon Prince + twin Skull Cannon combo (Legions of Chaos) and won many other games. A recent tournament in January had a High Elf list place 3rd without the Banner. It's harder, but it can be done.
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Post by knoffles on May 8, 2019 12:18:27 GMT
I have to say I’ve never faced the Lord version only the disc hero example you gave above (on a number of occasions). Although he is fairly immune to shooting, two wounds and the drop in save due to the GW means I’ve always taken him down in combat.
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Post by Horace on May 8, 2019 12:32:09 GMT
High Elf Special/Rare is so strong they truly do pay a Core tax. HE have multiple builds available which are all very strong.
I think Disc Heroes are the way people generally go in my experience and they are just unkillable roadblocks and points denial. In combination with the dirty DP it really is a most unenjoyable game generally speaking. The fact that these models are extremely difficult to remove even with multiple Cannons is the problem. Things like Cannons are the natural counter to these models, it is why Cannons exist. Unfortunately the people that field these sort of lists also then encourage the opposition to do likewise in an effort to combat it resulting in games devolving into min/max netlists. I guess some people enjoy playing like this week in-week out in which case gl to them, but these types of games are not really for me. I prefer trying out the more obscure options available.
My opinion is pretty much the same as 2 years ago when the thread started.
There is a top 3 of WoC/DE/HE
A middle of Skaven/Ogres/DoC/Vampires/Dwarfs/Wood Elves/Lizardmen/O&G/Chaos Dwarfs/Empire (of which Skaven & Vampires would represent the upper tier)
A bottom tier of Brets/Tomb Kings/Beastmen
I have seen several very competitive Bret armies but I think the options a limited. I don't think there is too much between the bottom and middle tiers though tbh
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on May 8, 2019 14:27:53 GMT
I think it is pretty obvious that HE, DE and WoC rule the top 3. The DP is extremely problematic for armies that can't field cannons. Overall, I'd say that the Hortennse Lord is even better as that 1+ 3++ rr1 save combo is pretty tough to beat. The re-rolling of ward saves of 1 in conjunction with a 3+ ward is a bit broken to say the least. That lord build is ridiculous I agree but the difference to me is that it can't output the same damage in certain matchups due to no thunderstomp and can be broken and run down. The DP is definitely more offensive and being unbreakable is really powerful, but Hortennse is much more defensively sound. The Hortennse Lord is nearly unkillable, and while not unbreakable, the build usually includes the crown of command, so he is stubborn. Also, since the DP is usually the army's wizard, it really is an "all your eggs in one basket" sort of situation. There are at least (limited) ways to drop a DP, cannons, lucky stonethrower shot, Withering + Waywatchers, etc. I think it is pretty obvious that HE, DE and WoC rule the top 3. The DP is extremely problematic for armies that can't field cannons. Overall, I'd say that the Hortennse Lord is even better as that 1+ 3++ rr1 save combo is pretty tough to beat. The re-rolling of ward saves of 1 in conjunction with a 3+ ward is a bit broken to say the least. The main problem with Hortennse is fitting a spell caster. So you need to run 3000p or over if running 25% H/L. That's true. It also happens to be the standard game size I play. |
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