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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Oct 23, 2017 15:18:17 GMT
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Post by mottdon on Oct 23, 2017 19:37:55 GMT
Sorry I've been quiet the past few days. I and my family have been sick with the flu.
I voted for Tomb Kings, Beastmen, DoC, and Bretonnia. Though the last two I'm kinda on the fence about. Daemons of Chaos I think could be decent, but every time I've ever played against them, I've completely obliterated them. And I wasn't even really trying that hard. Could be poor players though. Bretonnia I've had the complete opposite experience. The times I've played against them, I've always lost, but to be fair, I wasn't running a hard list, and my opponent was throwing everything he could at me. Even then it was close. I just think that they are limited in what they can do, and once you learn how to effectively stop their charge, then you've got them beat. That's just my personal experience with them though.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Oct 24, 2017 2:22:50 GMT
Beastmen Tomb Kings Bretonnia Dogs of War 
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Post by mahbruck on Oct 24, 2017 2:32:31 GMT
If you put a Dogs of War option there, I may vote for it Dogs of War as far as I know are not supported officially under 8th edition rules. I wanted to keep the polls focused on only the fully official armies (which is why I also left off the pseudo-official Chaos Dwarfs). Where are you getting the Dogs of War rules from? The 6th edition rules? In UK official tournaments, DoW was entirely legal but has to use the extremely outdated 6th Edition. In many of the US big tournaments like Adepticon, players were allowed to use the updated fanmade book. But anyway, fair enough with your focus  .
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Oct 25, 2017 2:32:36 GMT
I'm surprised to see that the Wood Elves scored two votes in the lower tier. Seeing Skaven and Ogre Kingdoms represented here was also unexpected.
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Oct 25, 2017 12:38:15 GMT
I was one of the 2 Skaven votes. I have found them a breakable and fragile army. A few bad luck leadership rolls or one one really bad miscast is swingy. They're war machine weapons are huge and destructive, but unreliable. If the opposing general can kill the general and the BSB it seems like bad leadership gets extrapolated quickly. i.e. Implosion.
My data points, which are 90% observed but not played first hand, are that the TOP TIER armies beat Skaven a lot. If you are a good general with 15+ games of leading the Skaven under your belt... OK. You'll probably do fine. Perhaps above average. No offense meant.
All of that said, I love the army. The character, the fluff, the theme. The skittering, the squeaking.
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Post by knoffles on Oct 25, 2017 12:53:45 GMT
I put Beastmen, Brets, and then TK and OnG. The first two mainly down to the fairly one dimensional play style (though I like it and play Beasts quite a bit). The others I don't think are as bad. OnG due to a lot of the random rules. TK as I feel they need the same rule as VC with regards to crumbling. As others said, its possible to win with them all.
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Post by frozenfood on Oct 25, 2017 13:38:17 GMT
OnG in the lower tier, while I put them in the top tier. Wouldn't it be interesting if we all got to play each other? I always feel that we're playing a different game... HPA and dreaded 13th doing something, death sniping that works, OnG that are weak. You guys live in a wonderful but alien world to me.
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Oct 25, 2017 15:53:30 GMT
OnG in the lower tier, while I put them in the top tier. Wouldn't it be interesting if we all got to play each other? I always feel that we're playing a different game... HPA and dreaded 13th doing something, death sniping that works, OnG that are weak. You guys live in a wonderful but alien world to me. I voted for Orcs & Goblins in the lower tier. Admittedly in my eyes they fit somewhere between the lower and middle tiers or even has high as the middle tier. I definitely don't see them as upper tier though. They have some great tools, but are a bit too random to truly compete against the big boys. My best buddy used to run them and he had quite a bit of success with them. I still can't believe that the HPA does nothing in your games! I think that's what makes these polls interesting, there definitely seems to be a general trend forming but there are many examples of exceptions to the rules. I think that raises interesting points of conversation.
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Post by knoffles on Oct 26, 2017 12:29:36 GMT
I've only played Skaven once in 8th and in that game the skaven magic and doom rocket demolished my Beastmen (though he also suffered a number of misfires). As such I couldn't rank them in the lower tier.
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Oct 26, 2017 15:21:04 GMT
I've only played Skaven once in 8th and in that game the skaven magic and doom rocket demolished my Beastmen (though he also suffered a number of misfires). As such I couldn't rank them in the lower tier. Myself, I actually voted for Skaven for the UPPER tier! I definitely can't see them being deserving of the lower tier.
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Post by Naitsabes on Oct 26, 2017 15:44:05 GMT
OnG in the lower tier, while I put them in the top tier. Wouldn't it be interesting if we all got to play each other? I always feel that we're playing a different game... HPA and dreaded 13th doing something, death sniping that works, OnG that are weak. You guys live in a wonderful but alien world to me. That's an important point. We no longer live in a world of 100+ people Grand Tournaments, national rankings and hard core there-is-nothing-but-win gamers who cook up ever more vicious net lists as the 'meta' shifts with every new army book. These days we are happily sitting in our little ponds and in each pond the big fish can be different. This can be down to player abilities, house rules, scenarios typically played and terrain placement among other things. I like this new world better (except for the little pond in danger of drying up part) but, it does make discussions like this a bit less...evidence based. That being said, skaven are evil, they never break (let alone implode) with their in-built Ld10 re-rollable, their spells are horrendous and the HPA deserves to be railroaded of the board every time. As a famous dude once said: "We hold these Truths to be self-evident"
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Post by frozenfood on Oct 26, 2017 15:51:24 GMT
That guy was not skaven, they wouldn't recognise the truth if it had Horns and threw green lightning. No wait, that was the one time they did recognise the truth 
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Oct 26, 2017 16:03:10 GMT
Please explain the inner working of Skavens to me. How do they get in-built LD10 re-rollable?
I thought they have very basic low LD, like 5... and (sometimes) get +1LD per rank. But that's for LD rolls, not break tests, right? I have only played against Skaven 3 times, grand total, in 8th Edition rules.
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Post by gjnoronh on Oct 26, 2017 16:33:12 GMT
Break test is a leadership test. Warlord and Grey seer are about Ld 7 IIRC. With Strength in Numbers (+1 LD per rank) for all the ranked up skaven units the generals leadership bubble is LD 10. BSB is cheap, extra ranks are cheap given low price per model. Both general and BSB are probably better tooled up to stay alive then try and make them into an offensive monster.
Because of their hide in the back ranks type rule it's also somewhat easier to keep those leadership node characters safe through multiple rounds of combat.
Of course I just love death sniping those leadership node characters out before combat.
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