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Post by frozenfood on Oct 26, 2017 16:47:13 GMT
What he said  LD7 + 3 ranks + 100 bodies that I don't care you kill + BSB = smiling skaven general. Then I forget that my skaven on the other side of the board do not have the general nearby and everybody starts running away. |
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Oct 26, 2017 16:50:20 GMT
Of course I just love death sniping those leadership node characters out before combat. That screws Skaven over pretty quickly! |
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Post by frozenfood on Oct 26, 2017 17:37:17 GMT
But how do you get close enough to snipe?
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Post by strutsagget on Oct 26, 2017 18:06:03 GMT
I voted low on wood elves because I suck as general and have only musterd 1 total win with them, on lucky snake eyes roll We need more woods and hills in our play group... Right now I stick to WoC to learn the game and make it not as easy for my playgroup to overrun me and beacuse I can field a fully painted army now . As I finish paining the other armies I will go back and play more elves of all kinds. |
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Post by mottdon on Oct 26, 2017 19:24:05 GMT
But how do you get close enough to snipe? I haven't actually done this yet, but I'm going to try and run my DE Supreme Sorceress on a Dark Pegasus with a Master on Dark Pegasus to run intercept for her. Hopefully that way, she'll be able to get within range to snipe away and still get out of harm's way, if need be. We'll see if that works. |
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Post by gjnoronh on Oct 26, 2017 19:47:29 GMT
Spirit leach has a 24 inch range. GW's definition of unmodified leadership changed multiple times during the course of 8th edition. I don't recall what the final FAQ said. But for at least a decent chunk of 8th ed you used the models actual leadership on their profile and not strength in numbers etc. So my LD 8 chaos sorcerers were sniping at +1 or so against Ld7 skaven from 24 inches away basically turn 1 or 2.
Same is true for other low leadership armies that require the generals leadership bubble. Snipe the general out before you get into combat if at all possible.
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Oct 27, 2017 12:04:47 GMT
Gary -
I saw others doing EXACTLY this at a tourney... EXACT.
Like to the tee, with Dark Elves, with a Sorceress on Pegasus.
Perhaps that's why I think Skaven stink.
And the games go back years, but I seem to recall at least 2 LD based implosions in games where I faced the rats.
The moral of this story is: we need a Skaven player in Rochester, NY.
Skweeeeek! Squeek.
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Post by gjnoronh on Oct 27, 2017 14:07:29 GMT
So if I was running Skaven 50 points for a 4+ ward on the general 4+ or 5+ ward on the BSB and then a character with a magic resistance item. Can do the whole thing for 100 points. Shuts down snipes. Given that they get 15 point engineers it's easy to fit in the extra magic item slots.
But that being said without access to snipes you really can't get to the leadership nodes. Sorceress on peg is cool but Skaven can put out all sorts of weird fire power not hard to jezzail her to death.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2017 18:11:44 GMT
OR...for 15 points each just take a LOT more engineers and put them all into your units.
You can't snipe them all...
EDIT: You definitely want the Ward Save on your general and bsb, and I would save the good MR for the unit of Stormvermin/Plaguemonks (most everyone knows that those are the only infantry units that can put up a decent fight in a Skaven list).
For everything else there's engineers. And at 15 points a pop I could just put 4 in a single unit for the cost of 1 with MR3.
Guess which one I'd rather do...
EDIT2: You also have the added bonus of having in-built redirectors in your units now! If it looks like you're about to be charged just march one out of the unit to hold up/redirect that unit that's about to charge the parent.
I've found I do best with Skaven if I delay close combat for as long as possible. I would gladly sacrifice 5 engineers if it means you don't get the points for my infantry blocks.
EDIT3: I would do: 4++ on both general and bsb. MR2 (if my local meta demanded it) on an engineer in same unit. (2++ vs death sniping, about as safe as you can get) then MR3 on my stormvermin. I've seen far too many of them die to spells to skimp on some kind of protection against those "hit everyone in the unit" type spells.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Oct 28, 2017 23:57:54 GMT
OR...for 15 points each just take a LOT more engineers and put them all into your units. You can't snipe them all... EDIT: You definitely want the Ward Save on your general and bsb, and I would save the good MR for the unit of Stormvermin/Plaguemonks (most everyone knows that those are the only infantry units that can put up a decent fight in a Skaven list). For everything else there's engineers. And at 15 points a pop I could just put 4 in a single unit for the cost of 1 with MR3. Guess which one I'd rather do... EDIT2: You also have the added bonus of having in-built redirectors in your units now! If it looks like you're about to be charged just march one out of the unit to hold up/redirect that unit that's about to charge the parent. I've found I do best with Skaven if I delay close combat for as long as possible. I would gladly sacrifice 5 engineers if it means you don't get the points for my infantry blocks. EDIT3: I would do: 4++ on both general and bsb. MR2 (if my local meta demanded it) on an engineer in same unit. (2++ vs death sniping, about as safe as you can get) then MR3 on my stormvermin. I've seen far too many of them die to spells to skimp on some kind of protection against those "hit everyone in the unit" type spells. It was things like 15 point engineers and access to cheap but devastating Warmachine's that precluded me from putting Skaven as low tier despite their unreliability and Leadership bubble issues. I wish Ungor or Night Goblins had a 15 point hero option! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2017 16:08:52 GMT
I think all Ungor should be cheaper than they are, and yes, some Ungor heroes would be awesome!
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Post by knoffles on May 8, 2019 16:19:46 GMT
Bumpity bump. Just because I’ve enjoyed the revisit of the other thread so much.
I think this one is less contentious but the 4th option could be good to discuss.
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Post by sedge on May 9, 2019 9:12:55 GMT
I'm stumped on a fourth choice (Beastmen, Brets and TKs being the obvious trio of weakest armies). I was going to vote O&G, but they actually have some really nasty units (Mangler Squigs and so on), good hordes (Night Gobbos with netters, Savage orc Big 'Uns) and cheap artillery that means they can be very nasty in the right build. However, it's Animosity and possibly their massive breadth of choices that makes them seem weaker, because they can be unreliable and many of their units are mediocre. Your average O&G army is definitely lower tier, but your nasty build O&G army feels like it's at least mid-tier compared to other nasty builds.
That leaves me trying to pick between DoC, Empire, Ogres and I'm not really sure what else (Woodies because they're tricky to get right?).
Also, totally off-topic, but what happened to ryryak? His account has been deleted.
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Post by Horace on May 9, 2019 9:32:39 GMT
I'm not sure I have enough experience playing with all the different armies to properly pick a 4th lower tier. As I said in the other thread, the gap between lower and middle tier is not very significant in my opinion especially on the fringes. From a mix of theory and experience I would probably hazard a guess at the 4th weakest being between Wood Elves (no real experience but I hear a hard army to master), Lizardmen (limited experience), O&G (ability to implode), Ogres (no experience but they don't look too frightening on paper) or Chaos Dwarfs (very expensive). The armies I discounted From the other mid tier armies (imo) are: Skaven are clearly upper tier if anything DoC whilst not as strong as they were in 7th still have a very solid book with a variety of options Vampires again have a very solid book with numerous strong options and excellent characters. Dwarfs also have a variety of different options and playstyles available to them. Whilst not as strong as the above options I feel they have a strong base level in comparison to other books. Excellent artillery and access to runes. Strong infantry. Empire I considered for the possible lower tier but I think they are really the true middle tier army. They are the jack-of-all-trades I'm stumped on a fourth choice (Beastmen, Brets and TKs being the obvious trio of weakest armies). I was going to vote O&G, but they actually have some really nasty units (Mangler Squigs and so on), good hordes (Night Gobbos with netters, Savage orc Big 'Uns) and cheap artillery that means they can be very nasty in the right build. However, it's Animosity and possibly their massive breadth of choices that makes them seem weaker, because they can be unreliable and many of their units are mediocre. Your average O&G army is definitely lower tier, but your nasty build O&G army feels like it's at least mid-tier compared to other nasty builds. That leaves me trying to pick between DoC, Empire, Ogres and I'm not really sure what else (Woodies because they're tricky to get right?). Also, totally off-topic, but what happened to ryryak? His account has been deleted. I think the thing with O&G is they are very unpredictable. If things go your way you can absolutely decimate any army in a very short time. However if things do not go your way your entire army can fall to pieces in 1 bad turn. If you are an O&G player you have to take the rough with the smooth. Some days you will upper-mid tier. When the dice are against you definitely lower. No idea what's happened to ryryak |
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on May 9, 2019 15:49:48 GMT
Also, totally off-topic, but what happened to ryryak? His account has been deleted. That is so strange. From a mix of theory and experience I would probably hazard a guess at the 4th weakest being between Wood Elves (no real experience but I hear a hard army to master), That's surprising. Although harder to master, in skilled hands I'd rate them as high-mid tier. They especially pose quite few problems to two of the best armies in the game... High Elves and Dark Elves. Great shooting. Great leadership. Great movement. Great magic. I just don't think they are very good when played as one would play the other armies. |
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