Dwarf Slayers and Ungrim

As long as you also explain to your opponent the reason why you want to deviate from the written rules :

I disagree and think you are wrong.

It is obvious the Banner of Lost Holds was intended to be used by Slayers in an Ungrim army for all the obvious reasons I stated above, but more than that.  The book uses Ancestral Heirlooms and Runic Items wording ambiguously in this situation, as an example a strict reading of the RAW would imply that the Banner of Lost Holds can not be taken AT ALL.

The BSB wording states clearly that Runic standards may be taken without points limits but does not state that an Ancestral Heirloom standard could be taken, although it says no Ancestral Heirlooms can be taken in the exact same section if a Runic standard is.  Nor does the Banner of Lost Holds fall within the allotted points for Ancestral Items (or Runic) on a Thane, which is limited to 75.  Additionally in the Ancestral Heirlooms section there is a clear distinction at the top between the 'magic items' described on that page and later 'runic items', thus one can conclude the Banner of Lost Holds is not technically a Runic item, and in fact is classified as a Magic Standard in its own section.  And as we all know, unit standard bearers in all other armies are able to carry Magic Standards if allowed in their unit box description.

Thus your interpretation must be wrong, as a RAW stance implies the Banner of Lost Holds can not be taken AT ALL.  Obviously this was not as intended, it MUST be a mistake, so we have to consider the RAI perspective.  The RAI perspective is this item was intended to be usable and we must use common sense to determine how, therefore it can be taken by Slayers in an Ungrim army, as obviously intended, or as a BSB in any army.

can just stick it on a generic lord or runelord anyways.

It certainly not clear RAI=NO for the angry bois. For the Thane to be eligible, you have to ignore the ancestral heirloom restriction and call it a magic standard, which is ultimately the same restriction preventing slayers from using it. There is no other option for a 100 point standard in the book either making the Slayer standard upgrade specific point restriction pointless ( ) without it. So there is definitely a case to be made for Slayers using them.

The way RAI works is there is usually a community accepted answer pending a FAQ (similar to the Lustria forums accepted Predatory Fighter restriction). Problem is we are never going to get one and the community got fractured. And this is certainly a situation where there is a clear pluck up with the rules vs this is a rule X superceeds rule Y problem. Really no actual interpretation can be made.

Because of this it falls to local communities to amend this themselves. But until EEFL decides to make a community edition, I feel flatly labeling it a no somewhere false attributes the question to being answered.

Did you read the thread I linked? Because I do not have "to ignore the ancestral heirloom restriction and call it a magic standard," because it is a Magic Standard. To make the Banner playable you do need to allow the BSB precisely a Magic Standard, not just a runic one (runic standards are Magic Standards, but not vice versa). However, that is NOT the same restriction that prevents the Slayers from using it: as I have pointed out in this thread as well, the Slayers cannot use it, even if you would allow them Magic Standards, because Ancestral Heirlooms can only be taken by characters. The 100 points option is neither here nor there. On the one hand, there are enough examples of units that have no way of maximising their allowed points value of magic items; on the other, the Slayers can actually get a 100 points runic banner - but not the Banner of Lost Holds.  

And if we are talking intent, I could point to the fact that neither the Daemon Slayer Lord, nor the Dragon Slayer Hero are allowed Ancestral Heirlooms. So, "it is obvious" that the subordinate Slayers are not intended to have Ancestral Heirlooms either. But that would be pure speculation - as most appeals to RAI are. 

To repeat here some of my basic principles:

1. RAW=RAI, unless there are clear indications to the contrary. 
2. What are clear indications to the contrary? Primarily, if the following are trangressed upon:
- a rule must be playable
- it is the same game in all language versions
3. Most rules' discussions turn out to be superfluous, if one adheres to the simple principle: unless specifically stated otherwise, normal rules apply. 

For future reference, I have tried to summarize the issue.

Who can take the Banner of Lost Holds?

1. Magic items accessible to Dwarf armies consist of Ancestral Heirlooms and runic items. While both are magic items, subject to all the usual rules for magic items, they are two distinct and separate classes. Ancestral Heirlooms are not runic items, and runic items are not Ancestral Heirlooms.

- Ancient Heirlooms are magic items that can be used by characters in addition to runic items as a character’ s points allow (Dwarfs AB p. 3, 32, 58, 59). This excludes all non-character units from access. In addition, some characters too (Daemon & Dragon Slayer, Master Engineer) do not have access to Ancestral Heirlooms, as specified by the options in their Army List entry (q.v.)

- Runic items (runic weapons, armour, banners, talismans, and engineering runes) are magic items that can be used by any model that is permitted to use them, as specified in the options of its Army List entry (q.v.). Runic talismans can only be taken by characters, engineering runes only by war machines.

To borrow a phrase from KevinC : the above statements are FACTUAL, it cannot be argued.


2. The Banner is a Ancestral Heirloom (Magic Standard). This already excludes all non-character units from access. Furthermore, BRB p. 503 specifies: “The only character permitted to carry a Magic Standard is the army's Battle Standard Bearer.” Hence, the BSB is the only one allowed to carry the BotLH.


3. And here we hit a snag: the BSB entry only allows a runic standard with no points limit, but the Thane’s points allowance (75) for Ancestral Heirlooms and runic items does not cover the cost of the Banner (100). RAW, the Banner cannot be taken.


4. I am an adherent of RAW=RAI, but with 2 a priori, non-written RAI that everyone should be able to accept:

- the game is the same in all language versions:

I do have the French version of the AB, which, however, on this issue does not help. I have noticed that the issue was not raised on German fora (although they do not seem to have much discussions about Dwarfs in general). Anyone with the German version here? Or another language version?

That leaves us with:

- a rule must be playable.  If there is no way a rule can be played, then, obviously, a mistake has been made, and the rule must be amended. 

There are two possible options here: either raising the points allowance of the Thane, or amending the BSB entry to "Magic Standard." Since there is no other Army Book where the BSB does not have access to all AB Magic Standards (barring those of Special Characters), regardless of other options, the second solution is preferable. I guess it is best to state “a Magic Standard or a runic standard (no points limit),” since some cannot seem to understand that all runic standards are Magic Standards, but not vice versa.

5. This completely solves the problem. However, there are some that appeal to RAI to allow the Banner for an Ungrim Slayer unit, based on the following arguments:

- It was specifically created for taking in Slayers

They may very well think so, but this is pure speculation, and flatly contradicted by the clear specification that Ancestral Heirlooms can only be taken by characters (aside from the fact that Slayers are only allowed runic standards).

- It is exactly 100 points, tallying with the Ungrim upgrade,

This is a non sequitur. In no way it overrides the clear specification that Ancestral Heirlooms can only be taken by characters. Besides, Slayers are allowed runic standards, and without doing much counting, I can easily identify at least 5 combinations of banner runes adding up to 100 points. Even if that were not the case, there would be enough examples of units which cannot maximise their points allowance of magic items. For instance, the HE Dragon Princes can carry a Magic Standard up to 75 points, but in reality, the maximum is 55 points.


I’ll even add an RAI argument that apparently has never been brought up. The BoLH description says: “All models in a unit that carries the Banner of Lost Holds can re-roll failed To Wound rolls in close combat.” Since “all models” might seem to imply non-character units carrying the Banner, some may clutch at this straw, but this is simply explained by the rules for Combined Units (BRB p. 99): “Whilst a character is part of a unit, both he and the unit (including any other characters that have joined that unit) are treated as a single combined unit for all rules purposes, save for the exceptions listed here” (and it is not listed as an exception). Note that the French version has here: Toute figurine d’une unité incluant la Banniere des Forts Perdus...(every model of a unit that includes the BoLH).

And if one wants to argue RAI: neither the Daemon Slayer Lord, nor the Dragon Slayer Hero are allowed Ancestral Heirlooms. This indicates that the subordinate Slayers are not intended to have an Ancestral Heirloom either.