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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2017 21:43:58 GMT
People base their warmachines on round bases because warmachines don't have facings. They don't have front, rear, or side arcs so the round base does a good job of abstracting that. Pg 109: "As a war machine does not have a base, units charging a war machine do not have to 'close the door' to align...". Also combat is abstracted against warmachines, you always have 6 models attacking it regardless of the number that actually contact it.
As far as a "virtual close" I will agree to disagree here. I think it's a perfectly valid strategy placing your unit exactly where he did in order to protect its own flank. It forces an enemy to be only able to make contact with the front; it just seems like bad luck (or smart play) that strut had his units where he did and wasn't able to charge the unit from a different direction.
And this game is all about having square matchups; from pg 20 of the rulebook: "Once the charging unit contacts the enemy unit, it must perform a second, bonus wheel if required to bring its front facing into flush contact with the facing of the enemy unit that has been charged,..."
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Post by gregwarhamsters on Nov 9, 2017 21:59:48 GMT
I've read the first few posts but not all as I know the answer. You have to charge the flank that's in arc. In thy case the unit has the impassable terrain there - in reality you'd swing around the side but in the rules you can't do that so as you cannot place a model I the 1" gap you can't charge them.
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Post by mottdon on Nov 9, 2017 22:28:18 GMT
The way I see this (and would have played it) is that the left (red) unit cannot charge since no part of the charging model can see any part of the enemy unit from any point in it's front arc. The (red) unit on the right IS able to see the enemy unit from the far right corner of it's front base and it is within it's front arc.
When measuring for the range to the unit, you'd measure closest point to closest point OUTSIDE the impassable terrain.
When completing charges, you are allowed to come within 1" of the terrain feature, but not if you are simply marching. If you fail your charge, you stop 1"away from the terrain piece.
When actually moving your models, move forward until all models can clear the terrain, pivot, move the models in and close the door to them. The only circumstance where they would close the door to you, is if you were able to make contact but closing the door brought you into another blocking piece of terrain, etc. That is when your opponent would close the door to you. If they in turn could not complete it (due to the same terrain blockage for example), then it is a failed charge. This is rare in my experience. You have to have a lot of terrain pieces on the board. It's usually caused by other units getting in the way.
This is why chaff and redirecting works in 8th edition.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2017 22:46:07 GMT
... When measuring for the range to the unit, you'd measure closest point to closest point OUTSIDE the impassable terrain. ... Do you mean that you measure AROUND impassible terrain? As in: you don't draw a straight line between units but try and figure out the distance between them going around? |
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Post by avatarofbugman on Nov 10, 2017 2:28:35 GMT
The (red) unit on the right IS able to see the enemy unit from the far right corner of it's front base and it is within it's front arc. Both units are in the side arc of the target unit, therefore it is a flank charge that must be declared. gjnoronh Clipping can initiate the contact, but the rules on aligning to the enemy clearly state you need to 'close the door' and the unusual situations section states that if you can't do that, the charge fails. This situation is a failed charge. The target unit made excellent use of the terrain to defend itself. punishing him for good tactics is not right. A charge to the front makes no sense. A group of warriors would not get charged from around a corner. This is pretty true of any game system. |
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Post by mottdon on Nov 10, 2017 3:34:56 GMT
Not at all. From the diagram above, the charging unit can see the flank of the target behind the terrain. The target is not completely hidden behind the terrain. The unit on the right can draw a straight line to the Target's flank. If I can see the last guy at the very back of the target unit, the I can complete a successful charge.
If someone is shooting at me, and I hide behind the corner of a brick wall, but I still have my butt sticking out from behind that corner, guess what, they can still shoot me.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Nov 10, 2017 4:02:32 GMT
Not at all. From the diagram above, the charging unit can see the flank of the target behind the terrain. The target is not completely hidden behind the terrain. The unit on the right can draw a straight line to the Target's flank. If I can see the last guy at the very back of the target unit, the I can complete a successful charge. If someone is shooting at me, and I hide behind the corner of a brick wall, but I still have my butt sticking out from behind that corner, guess what, they can still shoot me. Your wording makes it state that it is the target's front arc. That was the sticky part for me. The rest of my statement stands, however, as the charge had to be to the flank and closing the door must be possible. It's not just about what you can see. |
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Post by strutsagget on Nov 10, 2017 6:50:10 GMT
In this case, the impassible terrain has big holes so the unit was visible.
The charged unit was also scouts/skirmishers and on 2cm bases. As the unit had to stop 1” away, when moved and then contracts 1” to the center when charged(center around the front center) makes a 2” space. I do believe we could have “closed the square gap” on the corner but I am not 100% sure as we didn't think about this possibility.
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Post by Horace on Nov 10, 2017 8:14:33 GMT
I don't have the closing the door rules in front of me, but could the clipped unit not be wheeled backwards to allow the closing of the door. Would this count as finagling?
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Post by avatarofbugman on Nov 10, 2017 13:11:45 GMT
The closing of the door had to be to the side the charge was declared. I don't see how wheeling backwards achieves this, even with the contraction for skirmishers.
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Post by strutsagget on Nov 10, 2017 14:04:20 GMT
Still feels so wrong but I understand its game mechanics  perfect clear line or one wheel to a flank but not allowed to do it because one side has cover that has more exposure. |
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Post by avatarofbugman on Nov 10, 2017 14:29:16 GMT
Still feels so wrong but I understand its game mechanics perfect clear line or one wheel to a flank but not allowed to do it because one side has cover that has more exposure. It feels right if you think less statically. The unit is refusing it's flank to the enemy. A time honored tradition used throughout warfare. It forces the enemy to maneuver, thus slowing the impetus if the charge. It only seems odd because it is a turn based game. |
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Post by strutsagget on Nov 10, 2017 16:27:58 GMT
So the conclusion is I have to charge flank but with a pivot, it might have been possible to do corner to corner. Like this   |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2017 18:50:40 GMT
So the conclusion is I have to charge flank but with a pivot, it might have been possible to do corner to corner. Like this I think this would work, because they were skirmishers. Pg 77: "If skirmishers declare a charge (or a charge reaction that does not involve fleeing) they immediately tighten their loose formation in to a 'normal' formation before the charge distance is rolled." Bold part is my own emphasis. After tightening their formation there could have been more room to wheel and maneuver around that piece of terrain allowing for combat to happen. Your image is a good idea of what could have happened. Had that been a normal unit an inch away from the terrain then it's entirely possible that the same situation would have resulted in a failed charge. EDIT: your second image is wrong though. Unless that second unit can ALSO make base contact with the enemy then it would fail it's charge. It's conceivable with base sizes and types of units (flyers for example) that you could make it, but it would have to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Also because that leftmost unit of yours was a Chimera I highly doubt that it would have fit. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2017 19:11:28 GMT
strutsagget here's some pictures to show what I'm thinking: Your original positions: note that the rulebook on pg 77 states that the unit MUST form up around it's central model in the front rank, if even numbers it's controlling players choice which one of the central models the unit forms up around.  The leftmost model with a single wheel once moving past the terrain could (in theory, base sizes and extenuating circumstances could adjust this) contact the unit as shown.  The rightmost model could also contact the unit, even possibly with a pivot before the charge move even begins. Because the target is now further away from the terrain there's a good possibility they'd be able to close the door to the charging unit if the charging unit is unable to.  Hope this helps.
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perfect clear line or one wheel to a flank but not allowed to do it because one side has cover that has more exposure. 
