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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Apr 5, 2018 16:22:24 GMT
As requested by mottdon.
In the Official Update Version 1.9, p. 12, one can find this little nugget of information:
Q: What happens if a unit that is assaulting a building is itself charged? (p127) A: The assault on the building is abandoned (move the unit that was assaulting the building backward 1”) The two units outside the building are now engaged in combat instead and will fight a round of combat this turn.
This allows the Empire to use its Detachment rule for a little trick. If an enemy unit assaults a building which contains a Regimental unit, any Detachment could declare a Counter Charge action, which is resolved once the enemy has successfully completed its charge against the building. As per the FAQ, the assault is now abandoned, and the enemy has to battle it out with the Detachment first. As it is likely that the Detachment will be quickly disposed of, you can rinse and repeat with a second Detachment, if necessary.
A Regimental shooting unit could declare a S&S the first time, and if the Detachment is destroyed, could then fire at point blank range, during the Shooting phase in its own turn. Of course, if the enemy tries an second assault, a second S&S may not be possible (except for pistols).
This trick may buy you two extra turns, before the building can be assaulted. This is particularly useful, if holding the building is a victory condition. Of course, this only works, if there has not been a sucessfull enemy charge against the Detachments themselves. So, a enemy in the know would try to charge them.
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Post by mottdon on Apr 5, 2018 18:27:11 GMT
I'm trying to think of a downside to this.
I'm actually having a difficult time thinking of a potentially bad outcome! At the worst, your detachment gets charged, which was their intention in the first place, buying you yet another round. True, you would not get the Stand and Shoot reaction from the Handgunners in the tower, but the bigger goal of holding the tower for another turn is still in tact, putting you that much closer to winning the game.
This might not be possible if the Tower is being assaulted by multiple units, but that argument can go back and forth since both sides could have an equal amount of units in the fight.
If a unit of 20 Handgunners is in the tower, and has two detachments of 10 models, this becomes a much harder tower to breach. In this scenario, I think a detachment of Swordsmen would work best since they are the most defensible Core unit, with a higher WS and Shields to make parry saves with. In an ideal scenario, they stick in combat with the attacking unit for another round or two. Setting up speedier, flanking units (like knights) will go a long way toward ensuring their survival and prolonging the game.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2018 19:01:44 GMT
The only downside to this is the size of the unit itself from where I'm looking. Most lists that are truly take all comers will plan their lists accordingly in case this scenario comes up and they'll have a core unit of 20 models for occupying the tower (if they care about occupying the building).
This actually wouldn't be too bad with 10 archers/crossbows/handgunners as detachments. One unit could counter-fire whilst the other counter-charges, and you get two appropriately sized shooting units that can help clear chaff for the other turns of the game.
I could see an issue where the detachments aren't in range to affect the outcome at all; after all only the parent unit could be deployed in the tower the attachments would have to be deployed as normal right? They'd have to spend a turn or two huffing it into position to be of any consequence to their parent unit in the building. This is plenty of time for your opponent to bring a more substantial/deadly unit into play to clear out the tower.
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Post by mottdon on Apr 5, 2018 20:46:18 GMT
I suppose what type of unit you take as a detachment would depend on how you want to play them. Archers, Crossbows or Handgunners would certainly be able to add some credible fire to the chargers, but they wouldn't last nearly as long in a fight.
If you know that you'll be facing a lot of chaff units, or looking to cause as much damage as possible before close combat, then Handgunners is probably the way to go. But if you don't know what you'll be facing, I'd probably stick with something that could stand a chance of surviving a close combat and simply hold up a unit (Swordsmen).
As far as range goes, technically, they'd have to be within 3" of the building in order to take advantage of the detachment rule and counter-charge/counter-fire. If they're that close, it shouldn't be a problem, I'd think.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Apr 5, 2018 20:52:59 GMT
@ mottdon: A building can only ever get assaulted by a single unit. That said, if there are several units that are forced to declare a charge (e.g. because of Frenzy, if the building was the nearest enemy unit), the controlling player chooses which one can complete the charge; all the other units automatically fail their charges. Unfortunately, he does so after rolling the charge distances, so it may not be the unit a Detachment has declared a Counter Charge against.
@ ryryak: As you suspect, it does not come into play during deployment. You cannot deploy a Regimental unit in a building, unless perchance that building would be within 3" of the normal deployment zone (where you would need to deploy the Detachments). [Edit: note that under normal circumtances, units cannot be deployed in buildings - they can only enter buildings in the Movement phase.] You do need to move the Regiment/Detachments from the normal deployment zone into the building after deployment, and, of course, keep the Detachments within 3" of the Regiment, after it has occupied the building.
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Post by mottdon on Apr 5, 2018 21:20:33 GMT
So could you line the parent unit up in one long line and make a swift reform that would bring you into the building? (Super-cheesy if possible, I know.) As you can tell, I and my friends hardly ever play Watchtower...
I've heard of O&G players doing this with a unit of Night Goblins. Line up in a row and pivot about your center, bringing the end of the line within 8" of the enemy lines top of turn 1.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2018 21:30:51 GMT
It seems like there would be a restriction on the amount of distance a unit can move when reforming to prevent bullshit like that...
I don't have the rulebook handy to comment otherwise but I wouldn't play with someone if they insisted on performing maneuvers like that. I'd prefer to play solo over someone with that mentality.
EDIT: When I said "unit" I meant "individual model"
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Post by mottdon on Apr 5, 2018 21:37:31 GMT
Yeah, me too. Honestly, I'm not quite sure HOW they could do that. Even if you line up on the very edge of your deployment zone, and reformed 90 degrees to your center, you still only have 12" allowed to the back of your deployment zone, so I'd think that you would only be able to reform a maximum of 12" forward (or to the center of the board), which doesn't move you close enough. Maybe you could "Hand of Gork" them to within 8", but that's not quite the same thing. I dunno. I've certainly heard of guys who've played this way though.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Apr 6, 2018 8:31:54 GMT
In the Watchtower scenario, the question is fairly moot, because one of the players may deploy a single Core infantry unit in the building, but it may turn up later in that scenario, or in other scenarios. As ryrak indicates, in a reform (swift or otherwise), none of the models in the unit can move more than twice their Movement rate, and, of course, the centre of the unit must be maintained. However, the swift reform allows a unit to make a full normal move afterwards, so for most units that can occupy a building the theoretical maximum distance covered in such a scheme would be between 9" and 18". And then there is always Vanguard to add for some units.
Note also that, even if it is down to a single model, the Detachment will be steadfast, as the Regiment in the building will be either not engaged, or steadfast itself. Keep the General/BSB nearby, and there is a good chance of the Detachment fighting another round of CC.
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Post by vulcan on Apr 7, 2018 0:52:05 GMT
Actually, it's very useful for Watchtower scenarios. After all, your side just has to hold the tower. It doesn't have to be held with the original unit of 20 core. A common tactic is to march a bigger/harder unit up on turn 1, then on turn 2 have the 20-core unit evacuate the building and the replacement unit occupy it.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Apr 11, 2018 8:12:14 GMT
To add: The combat of the Detachment and the initial assaillant will also block that area for an assault by other enemy units. Steadfast and General/BSB in the area should be enough from keeping the Detachment breaking, but if you also add a Captain (Hold the Line) to the Regiment, the Detachment would become virtually unbreakable. To enhance the chances of survival for the Detachment, you could also add a WP to the Regiment, and aim to get the Shield of Faith (5+ ward in CC), and perhaps Flaming Attacks (to cause Fear in war beasts and cavalry).
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Apr 11, 2018 8:20:40 GMT
Remember, however, that the Detachment itself must be in range of the General/BSB to benefit, as those rules are not conferred from the Regiment.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2018 16:33:36 GMT
To add: The combat of the Detachment and the initial assaillant will also block that area for an assault by other enemy units. Steadfast and General/BSB in the area should be enough from keeping the Detachment breaking, but if you also add a Captain (Hold the Line) to the Regiment, the Detachment would become virtually unbreakable. To enhance the chances of survival for the Detachment, you could also add a WP to the Regiment, and aim to get the Shield of Faith (5+ ward in CC), and perhaps Flaming Attacks (to cause Fear in war beasts and cavalry). Flaming attacks to the regiment (I assume you mean the parent unit) also has the advantage of allowing you to reroll rolls to wound if and when the enemy unit finally makes it to the building. It's actually one of my favorite "tricks" if you will. My favorite unit for the watchtower is a unit of 20 AHW Khorne warriors with the flaming standard. 41 WS5 S4 attacks rerolling rolls to wound is a nasty surprise for anyone trying to assault their building!
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Apr 11, 2018 17:01:49 GMT
Well, the correct term is "Regimental Unit." For those unfamilar with the Empire rules: Battle Prayers target the Warrior Priest & the unit he is in, but if that unit is a Regimental Unit, succesfully cast prayers will also target its Detachments within 3."
Regarding FA: alas, you are mistaken: they only allow rerolls for the assaillant, not the defender.
BRB p. 69: "Fire can be a valuable weapon for driving out the defenders of a fortification. Every model with Flaming Attacks rerolls failed To Wound rolls when shooting at or assaulting a building, to represent the added peril for the occupants of being inside the burning structure."
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2018 17:31:12 GMT
huh. learned something new today. I've been playing that wrong all these years!
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