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Post by wilsonthenarc on Jan 16, 2016 18:40:22 GMT
I have that book, I love it and I re-read it a few weeks ago. I think I need clarification on how monstrous infantry scale walls. Just really big ladders?
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Post by KevinC on Jan 16, 2016 18:53:14 GMT
Wilson, good point. What I mean to clarify is that the only units that may scale the walls (i.e. ladders, siege towers, grappling hooks, etc.) are: Infantry and Monstrous Infantry. Note: the downside of Monstrous Infantry is that since units need to outnumber the troops on the wall in order to 'Seize the Ramparts,' their size makes this more difficult to achieve.
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Post by KevinC on Jan 16, 2016 18:54:05 GMT
Also Stomps attacks may not be used on troops fighting on walls and towers.
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Jan 16, 2016 20:30:59 GMT
those are 2 great rules, I approve
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Jan 17, 2016 22:18:05 GMT
So... Let's say I take a S5 Chaos Character of some sort. Give him a great weapon. Equip him with potion of strength.
All of a sudden, he is S5 + 2 + 3 = 10.
If he has 4 attacks, he rolls to damage a gate (D6). Then, he rolls again, presumably with a +2 for shaken... and so forth, with 4 or 5 or 6 attacks this is a 1-man wrecking crew, right?
Let's say I put him on a steed. All of a sudden, he's moving even quicker and he is an elite unit to smash gates.
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Post by KevinC on Jan 18, 2016 1:24:50 GMT
No. To damage the wall its the total Strength and Damage from a single Attack. So the Chaos character would have a totally of 11 (S10 + 1 wound = 11), which gives the wall a decent size scratch!
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Jan 18, 2016 13:13:45 GMT
Ah, thanks for the clarification. That's much better.
One other rules idea/suggestion: When the Siege rules were first put out - Monstrous Infantry weren't a defined troop type. I think it makes sense to add a new piece of equipment for attackers: M.I. Ladders.
Maybe just make them cost a few points more. I just don't like thinking an Ogre uses the same ladder as a goblin.
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Post by KevinC on Jan 18, 2016 14:49:54 GMT
Right, but I don't think they need additional rules. If you buy a ladder for a unit of Ogres, they would need to be big ladders, but all the rules stay the same.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Feb 17, 2016 14:18:28 GMT
The ladders Salamone designed are nice and beefy. Perfect for my Ogres. I disagree that they should cost more points, what's the rationale there? .
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Post by avatarofbugman on Feb 17, 2016 14:24:40 GMT
Thought question for you. Ogres and the like count as 2 models for log rams and such. Do they count as a single model or two models for attacking out of a siege tower? Also, why not have them count as two models on the walls? They take up that footprint, and I envision that the outnumber rule is about mass.
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Feb 17, 2016 14:57:02 GMT
Ogres have MASS
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Post by KevinC on Feb 17, 2016 15:30:46 GMT
Thought question for you. Ogres and the like count as 2 models for log rams and such. Do they count as a single model or two models for attacking out of a siege tower? Also, why not have them count as two models on the walls? They take up that footprint, and I envision that the outnumber rule is about mass. ----------These are my thoughts, but others please chime. As far a carrying/pushing siege equipment (i.e. carrying ladders, pushing sieges towers, carrying log rams, etc.) Monstrous Infantry should count as 2 models. This merely represents that Monstrous Infantry are larger and stronger and so are superior at these tasks as opposed to a standard man or goblin. For all other purposes Ogres count as a single model. I think this balances them. Two ogres still fight from a siege tower, and count as one model each on the walls. Otherwise Monstrous Infantry becomes too good on the walls. Not only do most of them dish out 3 high strength Attacks, but they also have 3 Wounds each. So if 10 Men-at-Arms are on a wall they are harder to outnumber, but easier to kill. If you have 5 Ogres on a wall, they are in theory easier to outnumber but much harder to kill (15 wounds vs 10 wounds from 10 men-at-arms). Not to mention those ogres will have 15 Attacks (at least). Remember to outnumber defenders on the wall attackers have to survive close combat attacks, that's very hard to do from S4, S5, and S6 Monstrous Infantry. Other strength and weakness are points cost. A 5 pt Man-at-Arms vs a 30 points Ogre, etc. This is the fun with siege. Every point in your army matters, all of your tactics matter. Avatar, if you get a couple practice games in, I think we are going to find that Ogres are actually pretty good.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Feb 17, 2016 16:11:01 GMT
I think what we ate ignoring is my point that I have attempted to take walls with my Ogres striking normally (not needing 6s) multiple times in this campaign. Needing 6s and also needing to outnumber I see as making it more difficult. Also, in defense I can max put 7 ogres up to 14 attackers. Out of my 21 attacks I will most likely hit say 11 times, then, out of those 11 I maybe wound 7. Assuming H.A. 6 die. Even without them attacking back, I am outnumbered. Replacing with gnoblars helps a little, but they hit on fives, and at S2 will wound on 5s or 6s. With "Man the Walls" it is not possible to do a war of attrition, which I could win.
Now, all I have been saying is my disadvantages seem larger compared to my advantages. I also said I'd play it out, but I think you are all overstating the advantages. Many armies can put 14 A2 S4, albeit elite troops, up on the walls, especially since garrison forces can be built to suit. The only possibility I have is Siege Towers, and they are expensive to come from GC, and also more difficult to make than ladders.
Also near in mind that I'm a bit snakebit considering that my last couple of campaign turns my foes didn't show for the battles and I have gained nothing as a result beyond a minor victory against Salamone in the ruins.
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Feb 17, 2016 18:35:36 GMT
I petition for Bugman to be granted 2 Empire Points for those battles where opponents failed to present themselves.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Feb 17, 2016 19:32:25 GMT
I showed up for a whole weekend just to hang and talk warhammer. No complaints, though. I just would have attacked other people had I known. I got a game against Salamone, thank you undead for winning it for me, and my other banners scared their opponents away.
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