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Post by wilsonthenarc on Feb 16, 2016 23:49:55 GMT
To be clear, My suggestion was for Gnoblars as being valid on defense, defending a wall. I still think Monstrous Infantry are at a HUGE advantage when attacking, versus the field.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Feb 16, 2016 23:53:25 GMT
Don't be snippy, I've just used my Ogres to attack defended positions where just winning was enough to remove the enemy, and that is hell hard. The current building rules for 8th are not friendly to ogres, just ask Salamone, and there I attack pretty much as normal. These siege rules are less friendly. I am expressing a concern. You expressed concern over the use of undead legions, I'm concerned here.
Remember, on the attack I am using my banners, I am an Ogre army, not a gnoblar army. I can take a building like in the watchtower scenario, but a siege is more like taking multiple buildings.
I also said that the rules as is ate not encouraging me to attack or defend in siege, although I could mount a better defense. O would love to do sieges, but my only chance right now is loads of log rams and some fortunate rolls. Not enticing.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Feb 16, 2016 23:55:18 GMT
They have an advantage in attacks, but disadvantage to take the wall in the end. You are way bettering of with any regular infantry 2 attack unit, as they will have numbers in the end.
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Feb 17, 2016 0:19:17 GMT
Ogres also do have access to a S10 D6W cannon in most games as attacker, which might make just blasting a wall to smithereens easier than using ladders to fight.
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Feb 17, 2016 0:20:11 GMT
Alright, it read that way.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Feb 17, 2016 0:34:57 GMT
No harm.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Feb 17, 2016 0:35:39 GMT
I'm thinking more from a campaign standpoint. That does not exist in my army.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Feb 17, 2016 0:36:39 GMT
The ironblaster, that is.
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Feb 17, 2016 1:52:57 GMT
I think elf elite infantry wins the day on attacks - 2A/model + ASF re-rolls + 2+ to wound versus T3 defenders. Phoenix Guard, Executioners.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Feb 17, 2016 2:29:08 GMT
How many points each are they, bearing in mind that a naked ogre is 35pts, 3 attacks? I also think that fear is mostly mitigated. Most people join ItP characters to units unless they are units that most Ogre players aren't attacking. If I was defending against Ogres I'd put an ItP character at each section if the points allowed it.
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Post by KevinC on Feb 17, 2016 3:04:57 GMT
Hi avatar,
I have been thinking about this issue before you raised it here. But I believe it comes down to trying different tactics.
For example, arm a bunch of Ogres with log rams and have them batter down multiple castle walls, supported by the Iron Blaster could be extremely viable. The single best weapon in siege is a cannon, and ogres have the best cannon in the game.
Regarding Gnoblars, remember that more than one unit can assault a single wall - the only thing that restricts this is space. So you could say, have a unit of Ironguts with 3 ladders, have three guts climb up, then a unit of Gnoblars also assault just for numbers.
Ironguts are core more akin to Ushabtui (sp?), 3 of them (with a champ) dish out 10 Attacks at S6. T4 and heavy armour for defense is good.
If you defend a wall, put three Irongut on a wall to dish out damage and put a bunch of Gnoblars up there for numbers.
What I believe is that these different tactics and armies have different strengths.
I believe Ogre can have a very strong assault.
In siege, it really forces units to work with each other and trying different tactics.
Before the campaign, try getting a practice game in with Rick. I think you'll see that Ogres might actually be a very good assaulting army.
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Feb 17, 2016 3:16:13 GMT
Yes, I too want to see these ogres in a siege situation.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Feb 17, 2016 3:23:40 GMT
I'm talking in comparisons here, just to be clear.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Feb 17, 2016 19:50:26 GMT
They will be, at best, a one trick pony. Load a ton of guys into one unit and assault a tower or wall section. As a defender, Sally out a tar pit, victory to you. Again, this is based on having done the old siege, and seeing nothing in these rules that swing things in either direction. The only new things is rams, but you are praying for 5s and 6s there as well for a minimum for 4 turns.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Feb 17, 2016 20:15:25 GMT
We don't have the numbers other armies have. You can get 2.3 hammerers for every base ogre. You get 3 dwarf warriors with GW, and they have better WS and Ld. In your Ironguts scenario I can take 4 warriors with GW or 3 longbeards armed the same (almost 4). The enemy will have a harder time hitting mean, and if I take longbeards I can do the same number of attacks for the same cost at the same strength. I start off up 2-3 models, and when the dust settles the Ogre is squashed. Let's not forget that the Ogre strengths are in their impact hits and stomps, not their straight up fighting prowess.
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