Rules Query - High Magic - Arcane Unforging

My understanding is as follows:

1) Yes, as it can target any model. As per the quoted text below, an effect can still target a unit standard bearer.

2) BRB p. 94 "...the standard bearer cannot normally be removed as a casualty unless only he and the champion (if there is one) remain in the unit. This applies even if the standard bearer is the target of an effect that affects only a single model [...] Another rank and file model is still assumed to pick up the banner" - so you'd just remove a rank-and-file model and the standard loses whatever was magical about it (and perhaps is just a scorched banner pole?).

3) Yes, as they're considered magic items: Dwarf army book p.59 "It is important to remember that an Ancestral Heirloom or runic item is no different from a magic item, and all the usual rules for magic items still apply."

4) It'd destroy the item completely even if it has multiple runes, as it's still one magic item.

As ever, this is all pending confirmation/clarification from FvonSigmaringen 

Cheers gents. I thought it was the case but it sucks when you aren’t near any books to confirm rules!

What sedge said.

However, I have seen it argued that, since Arcane Unforging destroys the magic banner of a standard bearer/BSB, there is no banner left to pick up/benefit from .

This can be countered as follows: RAW, there is nothing that says that the Magic Standard replaces the mundane standard, just like a magic weapon does not replace a mundane weapon - it just prohibits you from using it, but there is no such or other limitation for standards.  Only in the case of magic armour, the BRB p. 502 specifically states: "A model can only have one suit of armour and one shield, so if you give a model a magical suit of armour or a magical shield, it replaces any mundane equivalent already worn by the model." 

This is reflected by BRB Official Update Version 1.9, p.11:

• Q – If a Battle Standard Bearer has to be placed in the second rank of a unit due to there being no space for them in the unit’s first rank, do the effects of the battle standard still apply? (p107)
  A – Yes

 

• Q – If a Battle Standard Bearer who has a magic standard has to be placed in the second rank of a unit due to there being no space for them in the unit’s front rank, do the effects of the magic standard still apply? (p107)
  A – Yes.
  

So, buying the standard bearer/BSB upgrade gives you automatically a mundane standard, but buying the extra upgrade of a magic standard will not replace the mundane standard. Arcane Unforging will destroy the Magic Standard, but not the mundane one.

Not really. After all, Arcane Unforging does destroy the magic standard. If the spell destroys a magic weapon or magic armour, then that weapon or armour does not just lose its magical properties - it simply ceases to exist. The same applies to a magic standard.

Either one argues that the magic standard =/= the mundane standard, or one must argue that the properties are dependent not on the standard, but on the (Battle) standard bearer as such. The latter approach could refer to BRB p. 94: "If a unit includes a standard bearer, it will be more determined than ever to beat its foe, and so adds +1 to its combat result." However, it immediately continues: "Remember that in a multiple close combat this bonus is limited to a maximum of +1 if any unit has a standard, not +1 for each one present in a fight" [Italics mine]. And in the case of the BSB, it states: "Like a normal standard, a battle standard adds +1 combat resolution in a close combat if it is in a friendly unit. Unlike a normal standard, a battle standard adds this +1 even if another standard is present"[Italics mine].  The first approach satisfies all RAW, and does not suffer from the same problem.

Irrelevant for the issue at hand.


That is the second approach in my previous post, which, for the reasons stated there, does not settle the argument.

No. Any magic standard is bought in addition to the mundane standard, just like any other magic item is bought in addition to the mundane equipment, with the exception of magic armour, where it is specifically stated that it replaces any mundane armour.
Therefore, if the magic standard is destroyed by Arcane Unforging, the mundane standard is not affected.

DiscoQing argues that the magic standard replaces the mundane standard (which is not stated in the BRB or any AB), but, if the standard is destroyed, the bearer (or the pole) retains the ability of the standard, which, again, is not stated as such in the BRB (or ABs}. Indeed, the BRB links the ability to the standard (with the one quoted exception, but that is simply because in normal cicrcumstances the bearer will have a standard). So, his argument would not settle the question.


There is no disagreement about the end result, but about the argument supporting it. Since no FAQ will be forthcoming that would settle the question, it is best to go for the most convincing argument, i.e. the one supported by RAW.

Well, it is true that your first position



is not quite the same as your second:



Both positions assume that the magic standard replaces the mundane one, but the first position is contradicted by the wording of Arcane Unforging, and the second is not supported by anything written in the BRB/ABs.

But perhaps you have now a third position? How would you answer someone who says that it is common sense that a destroyed standard cannot provide any benefits anymore?