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Post by strutsagget on Sept 21, 2019 9:58:01 GMT
Hi I am trying to figure out in what direction you move the pursuer if they caught the opponent(rolled higher on the dice) if the opponent breaks from combat. An example is the main block defending towards two characters/monster and with a flank. You lose combat and you flee and all units follow/pursue. I have three different way and not sure what way is the "correct": arrows are not exact in pictures. 1. The unit is cut down where it stood in combat and you draw centre to centre lines.  2. The unit is cut down where it stood in combat and you draw straight lines forward.  3. The unit is moved to its imaginary fleeing position (dice inches and away from biggest block) as if fleeing and you draw straight lines from center to center.  |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 21, 2019 11:00:21 GMT
It is not as such covered in the BRB. However, there is no basic difference between the two pursuit moves (enemy fleeing or caught). The enemy unit is supposed to turn around its centre, directly facing away from the enemy with the most ranks (your largest block). So, diagram 1 is clearly incorrect as such, and diagram 3 has at the very least an incorrect imagined position of the fleeing unit. Since the caught unit does not move any further in reality, I would say diagram 2 is the best way to play it.
Relevant rules:
BRB p. 57: "To resolve the flee move, turn the unit around about its centre so that it is facing directly away from the enemy unit (ignoring the enemy unit).
The unit then flees straight forward a distance equal to the result of the Flee roll."
Ibidem: "With the final position of the fleeing unit now determined, it's time to move the pursuers. Turn the pursuing unit about its centre so that it is facing directly towards the unit they are pursuing - the pursuers then move straight forward a number of inches equal to the amount rolled on the dice.
Note that pursuers make this move even if the fleeing unit was caught, as described earlier — the 'pursuit' move in this case represents them surging forward to cut down any stragglers."
BRB p. 60: "Each fleeing unit pivots about its centre (ignoring enemy units) so that it is facing directly away from the enemy with the most ranks of five or more models (select a unit randomly if there is a tie). It then flees straight forward in this direction as described earlier."
Ibidem: "Once all flee moves have been resolved, resolve any pursue moves one at a time. In an order chosen by the controlling player, each pursuer pivots about its centre so that it is facing directly towards the fleeing unit of its choice, and then pursues, as described earlier."
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Post by crownprinceimrik on Sept 21, 2019 11:19:54 GMT
I think 2 is correct in how the losing unit and the larger of your units moves, but the two characters/monsters would not move straight forwards, they would still turn to move towards the position that the fleeing unit would have been in.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 22, 2019 12:24:35 GMT
That is indeed a possible, although more complicated, option. Either way, BRB p. 59 applies: "Bear in mind, however, that multiple combats often create situations not entirely covered by the rules. I've included a commentary far the most common occurrences here, but remember: if in doubt discuss the matter with your opponent before any dice are rolled."
One should think, though, that this situation should be among the most common occurences. What is not covered either in the rules: what happens if the winning side does not have a unit with more ranks than the others? What is the direction of flight (whether the unit is ccaught or not). Is it the controlling player who decides (which I would favour), the player whose turn it is, or something completely different?
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Post by strutsagget on Sept 22, 2019 13:14:40 GMT
So my thought goes back and forth.
I am leaning to number 1 as all pursuers should face center of the destroyed unit (but yeah what is center of nothing...). If they wanted you to always move the fleeing unit that section should have been before rolling the pursuers dice.
“CAUGHT!
If a pursuing unit rolls equal to or higher than the fleeing unit, the fleeing unit is destroyed.
If the victorious unit’s pursuit roll is equal to or greater than the Flee roll scored by the fleeing enemy unit, the fleeing unit is completely destroyed where they stand. All the troops are cut down as they turn to run, or are scattered beyond hope of regrouping – remove the entire unit as casualties. In reality not all the fleeing troops will have been slain, but any who’ve survived will be so broken in spirit that there’s no chance of them fighting again this day.”
“MOVE FLEEING UNIT (Combat section BRB)
Fleeing units turn around to face away from the victor and then move directly forward a number of inches equal to their Flee roll.
If the fleeing unit rolls higher than the pursuers, or has not been pursued at all, then it has escaped. With a bit of luck, the warriors will come to their senses once the immediate danger has passed, and might yet play a useful part later on in the battle.
To resolve the flee move, turn the unit around about its centre so that it is facing directly away from the enemy unit (ignoring the enemy unit).
The unit then flees straight forward a distance equal to the result of the Flee roll. This is otherwise treated exactly the same as a flee move in the Movement phase. You’ll remember that fleeing troops are assumed to run around, force their way through or otherwise avoid other units and impassable terrain in their desperate flight.”
“MOVE PURSUERS
The pursuing unit pivots to face the centre of the fleeing unit and moves directly forward equal to its pursuit roll. It will stop 1" away from any friendly units or impassable terrain, and will charge an enemy in the way.
With the final position of the fleeing unit now determined, it’s time to move the pursuers. Turn the pursuing unit about its centre so that it is facing directly towards the unit they are pursuing – the pursuers then move straight forward a number of inches equal to the amount rolled on the dice.
Note that pursuers make this move even if the fleeing unit was caught, as described earlier – the ‘pursuit’ move in this case represents them surging forward to cut down any stragglers.
”
“MOVE FLEEING UNITS (Movement section BRB)
Any units that do not rally must immediately flee 2D6" in the direction they are facing. Every model that flees through an enemy unit or impassable terrain must take a Dangerous Terrain test.
If, despite the player’s best efforts, a unit continues to flee, it will continue its headlong flight for safety, moving 2D6" straight ahead in the direction it is facing. Some particularly swift units flee faster, but we’ll discuss those later on.
As fleeing troops are assumed to have broken formation, they ignore obstacles of any kind as they retreat. Fleeing troops move through other units (friend or foe) and impassable terrain, as they are assumed to run around the obstruction, or force their way through, fuelled as they are by sheer desperation. If the flee move would result in the fleeing unit ending up ‘on top’ of or within 1" of another unit or impassable terrain, then it carries on fleeing straight forward until it is past the obstruction, and will then halt.”
Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “WARHAMMER RULEBOOK”. Apple Books.
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Post by crownprinceimrik on Sept 22, 2019 13:46:33 GMT
Hmm, okay, maybe it is 1? The pursuit move says to face them towards the center of the fleeing unit. The fleeing unit is destroyed where they stand so they don't move, so the pursuing unit will just face what used to be the center of the enemy unit and then move. The flee movement rules don't seem to demand that the move is made before determining if the unit is caught, the phrasing looks a bit funny, but I don't think it is mandated that the fleeing unit moves prior to comparing the dice rolls, and the paragraph above that seems to say that the dice comparison is done first. It does seem a bit strange, though.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 22, 2019 16:45:13 GMT
strutsagget makes a valid point there, and I now think he is correct. They should simply have added in the "Caught" paragraph a sentence about how the pursuers move, rather than intersect a whole page of other info.
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Post by sedge on Sept 22, 2019 19:08:25 GMT
It's never been clear to me, but it comes up a lot, and I think we usually end up going for 1.
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