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Post by lordofskullpass on Feb 10, 2022 21:05:07 GMT
Yes because they've trained to fight and therefore charge a certain way, so there should be benefits as well as disadvantages and players need to choose their style of deployment. I would have maybe gone for impact hits instead of Devastating charge. Personally I think all Cavalry, not just Bretonnians, should have Impact Hits (1) to balance them out against infantry. If you’ve played any Total War games you’ll understand my reasoning. Devastating Charge will work well on Bretonnians as all the models in both flanks of the Lance will get an extra attack as well as those in the front - a standard Lance of 9 would be able to make 16 attacks on the charge (if counting a Champion) - this plus the increased Strength from lances would hurt a lot. Increase the Lance to a size of 12 or more and the hurt would only increase for your hapless foe. Also are you considering knights on foot, I know a few people I played with way back when Brets first appeared didn't like that 6th had done away with them. I am, though they’d be a Special choice at the very least, if not Rare. I want to keep the ‘strong Cavalry, rubbish infantry’ theme going from 6th Edition as it’s a good way of differentiating the Bretonnian faction from the Empire (though to be fair Empire infantry are on the mediocre side as well), and not allowing Foot Knights to be core is the one way to do this.
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Post by thegoat on Feb 10, 2022 21:39:21 GMT
Additionally, a project overseen by this forum to improve 8th rather than create a separate game as first 9th Age and now Eliasson have done can fill a gap in the market, especially as endorsement by this forum would carry greater weight than one person's authorship alone. Count me as on board. For a while I've wanted to try my hand at generating a minimal list of rule tweaks to balance 8th edition. But "balance" is highly subjective for sure. Stuff like: - Cannons scatter in random direction with first roll.
- BS shooting +1 at short range instead of -1 at long range.
- Non fast cavalry get impact hits on the charge.
- Once a unit is over five ranks deep it must add one file per rank.
- Something to limit hoard units:
- Maybe 36 models (six ranks of six files) is the max unit size across the board.
- Or model limits per base size so 20mm could be larger than 25mm, etc.
- Or just remove the hoard rule
- Remove some beardy/exploitable magic items (flying carpet, folding fortress, etc.)
That is what I've got so far. Oh yea: - No clipped charges. If you make contact, slide/shift to maximize combatants on both sides.
- Lesser unit strength closes the door in the charge. So five skaven slaves can't force twenty chaos warriors to pursue/overrun in a weird direction.
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Post by oldmandan on Feb 10, 2022 22:09:36 GMT
I get what your saying. However, Total War is not something that would necessarily translate well. The danger is making things too powerful, whilst in reality yes knights would demolish infantry unless they were a schiltern. Buffing knights too much would make them insane and an auto win in every situation. For instance if Wild riders had both impact hits and devastating charge they would just annihilate everything. So I would stay with in this case Devastating charge when in Lance formation. I must confess I've never had trouble winning combats with cavalry.
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Post by oldmandan on Feb 10, 2022 22:22:45 GMT
Yeah I would maybe remove the Arabyan carpet and fozzriks fortress but only because they're shite.
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Post by thegoat on Feb 10, 2022 22:33:16 GMT
I get what your saying. However, Total War is not something that would necessarily translate well. The danger is making things too powerful, whilst in reality yes knights would demolish infantry unless they were a schiltern. Buffing knights too much would make them insane and an auto win in every situation. For instance if Wild riders had both impact hits and devastating charge they would just annihilate everything. So I would stay with in this case Devastating charge when in Lance formation. I must confess I've never had trouble winning combats with cavalry. I'm not sure if you've played old editions of WFB. But us longbeards think cavalry were nerfed hard in 8th edition. They were much more powerful in previous editions. Losing always strikes first on the charge and the opponents getting the step up rule to fight back severely limited the damage a cavalry charge can inflict on a block unit.
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Post by oldmandan on Feb 11, 2022 0:04:37 GMT
I joined back in 5th, but yes I remember the benefits of charging first. However, I would ask which cavalry did 8th actually nerf? The whole point of the step up rule was to give infantry a chance to hit back. It seems a little silly that you could simply kill five guys and then that massive unit couldn't hit back. Also I felt that with 8th you had to think more instead of simply charging in. It was that lack of dimension that eventually turned my off Bretonnia.
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Post by thegoat on Feb 11, 2022 0:50:01 GMT
I joined back in 5th, but yes I remember the benefits of charging first. However, I would ask which cavalry did 8th actually nerf? The whole point of the step up rule was to give infantry a chance to hit back. It seems a little silly that you could simply kill five guys and then that massive unit couldn't hit back. Also I felt that with 8th you had to think more instead of simply charging in. It was that lack of dimension that eventually turned my off Bretonnia. You are not wrong. By and large step up is a good rule. I wouldn't take it away. But I do think heavy cavalry was hit too hard by the nerf hammer in 8th edition. Warriors of Chaos - Chaos Knights, Vampire Counts - Blood Knights, Empire - Knightly Orders have much lower performance/points ratios than they had before. Probably High Elf Dragon princes and Bretonnia heavy knights are probably in the same boat (I've never actually seen them used).
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Post by vulcan on Feb 11, 2022 2:39:21 GMT
I joined back in 5th, but yes I remember the benefits of charging first. However, I would ask which cavalry did 8th actually nerf? The whole point of the step up rule was to give infantry a chance to hit back. It seems a little silly that you could simply kill five guys and then that massive unit couldn't hit back. Also I felt that with 8th you had to think more instead of simply charging in. It was that lack of dimension that eventually turned my off Bretonnia. You are not wrong. By and large step up is a good rule. I wouldn't take it away. But I do think heavy cavalry was hit too hard by the nerf hammer in 8th edition. Warriors of Chaos - Chaos Knights, Vampire Counts - Blood Knights, Empire - Knightly Orders have much lower performance/points ratios than they had before. Probably High Elf Dragon princes and Bretonnia heavy knights are probably in the same boat (I've never actually seen them used). Let's just say Bretonnia was hit SO bad by the nerf to heavy cav, for quite a while ETC gave them extra points to compensate. And they still weren't exactly tearing up the tournament scene.
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Post by oldmandan on Feb 11, 2022 7:40:33 GMT
I get what you're saying. But the changes in 8th really caught out a lot of players. For a while everyone complained about the Skaven because they were no longer breaking units of clanrats in one combat. One of the key things that I took away from that was not to simply rush in. I remember one of the Bret players from 6th he really made an effort not to do that. It was really awesome to watch him deploy and then manoeuvre to get some amazing charges off. He was still winning battles when 7th came along. You shouldn't expect to win in an instant it should be a calculated strike with you stacking the odds in your favour.
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Post by oldmandan on Feb 11, 2022 7:45:09 GMT
Again though we need to get away from the herohammer syndrome. Which was the joke people made about warhammer because there were units and heroes that were just an auto win. Yes Chaos knights should be powerful but if they can't be beat then people lose interest and won't bother. Last I looked Blood dragons were very formidable. Backed up with a BSB that is something I don't fancy being on the wrong end of.
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Post by thegoat on Feb 11, 2022 12:33:56 GMT
Right, I wouldn't want to see heavy knights get too powerful as that would be just as bad. Perfect balance among all the unit types and races and special rules, etc. is impossible for sure. GW themselves have a bad habit of wildly over-correcting balance in their games. Units that need a little boost get two or three big boosts and suddenly they are way too good. But I guess that sells models.
End of the day, I'd like to see a boost to heavy knights. The impact hits on the charge seems like it could do it. Happy to hear other people's thoughts.
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Post by oldmandan on Feb 11, 2022 14:03:52 GMT
I couldn't agree more. GW are always overtunning stuff or not costing things correctly. There is actually an undercurrent of discontent starting among fans with GW as they are only going for quick bucks and releasing over priced box sets and just don't seem to care about the hobby anymore. Andnwith items my main annoyance is the helm of many eyes that seems too good for the points cost. I think what we should look at is which cavalry units are struggling and what are they struggling with and why. As I say I'm not against like impact hit rule similar to Ogres but it has to be balanced. Even then there is always the question hammer or anvil? What are they the counter to and what is their hard/soft counter?
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Post by mottdon on Feb 11, 2022 14:07:15 GMT
Dragon Princes can be utterly devastating when taken in a group of 15. I've played against that (and watched him take it against others) before and was quickly crushed by it. My opponent used the HE ability to fight in 3 ranks to the max. He'd also take units of Silver Helms this way and use Ellyrian Reavers to either side of their flanks so that they couldn't "close the door" and be redirected. Not to mention, they could shoot at anything coming up for that purpose. He'd round out the rest with small units of archers in groups of 3,3,3, and 1, and let his caster jump between them, depending on threats.
Two turns and he was crashing his Dragon Princes into someone with 23+ attacks and usually a Prince in tow as well. I never saw anyone stand up to that. It's the HE version of a mounted Death Star. If you added something like Impact Hits, or Devastating Charge, it'd just add insult to injury.
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Post by oldmandan on Feb 11, 2022 14:08:32 GMT
Maybe something like for every rank grants a cumulative bonus and either charging from max distance or if you roll double six when charging that improves the hits. We have to be careful though, some bonuses could make cavalry like wildriders deadly so again who would get the bonus there's also monstrous cavalry to consider as well. Or on the charge horses get plus one strength similar to unicorn impale.
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Post by mottdon on Feb 11, 2022 14:09:28 GMT
Also, I think this has derailed the topic of this thread. Probably need to start a new thread for it.
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