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Post by Horace on Mar 15, 2022 0:18:49 GMT
I think I would enjoy playing Chaos Dwarfs with O&G.. as I enjoy playing any of the "high value" armies with them. O&G have exceptional tools of destruction and CD can ill afford to be taking heavy losses from a stray Mangler etc
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Mar 15, 2022 1:03:21 GMT
I would also strongly argue that you win a lot of games with CD because your opponent has never faced them or very few time. And they overate the wrong units, that look very scary. Like thinking bull centaur is as good as mournefang Against a good opponent like my regulars(if you can call it that after 2 years covid break) that both are above average skilled and know my army. CD winning percentage goes drastically down. I usually never loose a fight at my local club but against my regulars homies it’s pretty 50/50 +\- who ran the best list. The main problem with running kadaii is it only good usually against week players. I loosely quote the best chaos dwarf player from chaos-dwarf.com “kdaii destroyer is the most hit and miss unit in the army”. Warhammer is not about single unit math in frozen locked down environments that seldom happens in the game it self but about army composition. And the kdaii d needs to go forward but the rest of the army “can’t” go forward. That leaves a gap and easy for you opponent to pick it off. If you're winning roughly 50% of the time against your opponents that are above average skill-wise, it would seem that the CD are a nice little middle tier army. That's roughly where I would place them. I can think of several armies that are stronger than the CD and several that are weaker. As for the Destroyer, we of course find ourselves on the opposite side of this debate (and that's okay). I think it is still a very useful tool against highly skilled players, it just isn't an instant game winner as it can be against weak players. True, some people didn't like the K'daai Destroyer on the CD forum, but overall it was viewed quite favorably in the Chaos Dwarf survey that was conducted. It was ranked in 2nd place on the CD roster, just below the Magma Cannon and just above the Hellcannon. As for leaving the rest of the army behind, that's only if you want it too. For instance in the battle report you provided, the CD force massively outranged the Lizardmen at distance. That Magma Cannon, Hellcannon and Death Shrieker combo would easily have forced the Lizardmen player to close the gap with the CD's mainline and the Destroyer could have hung slightly back, ready to break out a charge or counter charge. Alternatively, the Destroyer could have used its massive 18" march move to terrorize that open left flank.
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Post by strutsagget on Mar 15, 2022 7:25:24 GMT
I think I would enjoy playing Chaos Dwarfs with O&G.. as I enjoy playing any of the "high value" armies with them. O&G have exceptional tools of destruction and CD can ill afford to be taking heavy losses from a stray Mangler etc I have found that It is something about the magma cannon and hell cannon at s5 that really likes orcs. But to be honest I am no where near a 34 games normal curve statistics. And with favorable I think closer to 55/45. But it is a guesstimate and also depends on number of anti armour save flying goblin war machine.
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Post by strutsagget on Mar 15, 2022 12:36:41 GMT
I would also strongly argue that you win a lot of games with CD because your opponent has never faced them or very few time. And they overate the wrong units, that look very scary. Like thinking bull centaur is as good as mournefang Against a good opponent like my regulars(if you can call it that after 2 years covid break) that both are above average skilled and know my army. CD winning percentage goes drastically down. I usually never loose a fight at my local club but against my regulars homies it’s pretty 50/50 +\- who ran the best list. The main problem with running kadaii is it only good usually against week players. I loosely quote the best chaos dwarf player from chaos-dwarf.com “kdaii destroyer is the most hit and miss unit in the army”. Warhammer is not about single unit math in frozen locked down environments that seldom happens in the game it self but about army composition. And the kdaii d needs to go forward but the rest of the army “can’t” go forward. That leaves a gap and easy for you opponent to pick it off. And that goes into next problem, CD core… everything compared to normal dwarf army is over coaste. Great weapon dwarfs unit of 28 cost at least 56 points to much. That is enough to field that very important khan chaff. They are still a blast to field though. Just plan for an uphill battle of fluffy opponent. And yes don’t go nuts on those great war machines you still need those over costed short legs.
I agree with most of this. However, I'd like to throw a few things in:
- You don't always play battleline. Chaos Dwarfs are good in some of the other scenarios, for example Battle for the Pass (it allows you to place your war machines further away from the enemy than normal) and Siege Battle with Chaos Dwarfs as the attackers. Actually, these were the "favourable circumstances" I meant when I said I beat the Skaven twice.
- You can suprise your opponent by playing a very mobile army that he didn't expect: Sorceror-Prophet on a flying monster, Bull Centaurs, K'daai, Hobgoblin Wolf Riders... take as few of the slow units as possible (for Core, that means more Hobgoblins than Chaos Dwarfs, and then there is the Banner of Swiftness). It will work if your opponent really wasn't prepared to face an army today that can move.
- The Chalice can work very well for you. In one game that I played against the High Elves my opponent didn't manage to get a single spell through for the entire six turns.
It is an army with many weaknesses, however. And while I did very well with them when fighting Elf armies, I had some real difficulties when fighting Orcs & Goblins...
Yes I agree. We usually roll on scenario but lately as we play so seldom we just want to get started as quickly as possible. But there are also worse scenario so it can go either way. I really do like the look of the banner of slavery list I have added to the forum but I am missing a lot of hobo's and still have not found a model I like enough to buy 100 of them and my paint queue is big enough anyway. It has very promising statistics(from the player and potential). I would not say it is fast but it definitely plays differently. I seldom tailor though and always want to bring an alcomers as my opponents usually have several armies and we don't agree in advance on what we bring, secret is more fun. I love the chalice, still don't know if 25p dispel scroll is better then 50p chalice as you can only take one unless you take a very expensive scroll caddy/engineer(I sometimes do). I very seldom face elves myself as I am usually the elf player. But the times I have played T3 opponents the WM really shines.
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Post by baaderthegreat on Mar 15, 2022 19:25:55 GMT
I agree with most of this. However, I'd like to throw a few things in:
- You don't always play battleline. Chaos Dwarfs are good in some of the other scenarios, for example Battle for the Pass (it allows you to place your war machines further away from the enemy than normal) and Siege Battle with Chaos Dwarfs as the attackers. Actually, these were the "favourable circumstances" I meant when I said I beat the Skaven twice.
- You can suprise your opponent by playing a very mobile army that he didn't expect: Sorceror-Prophet on a flying monster, Bull Centaurs, K'daai, Hobgoblin Wolf Riders... take as few of the slow units as possible (for Core, that means more Hobgoblins than Chaos Dwarfs, and then there is the Banner of Swiftness). It will work if your opponent really wasn't prepared to face an army today that can move.
- The Chalice can work very well for you. In one game that I played against the High Elves my opponent didn't manage to get a single spell through for the entire six turns.
It is an army with many weaknesses, however. And while I did very well with them when fighting Elf armies, I had some real difficulties when fighting Orcs & Goblins...
Yes I agree. We usually roll on scenario but lately as we play so seldom we just want to get started as quickly as possible. But there are also worse scenario so it can go either way. I really do like the look of the banner of slavery list I have added to the forum but I am missing a lot of hobo's and still have not found a model I like enough to buy 100 of them and my paint queue is big enough anyway. It has very promising statistics(from the player and potential). I would not say it is fast but it definitely plays differently. I seldom tailor though and always want to bring an alcomers as my opponents usually have several armies and we don't agree in advance on what we bring, secret is more fun. I love the chalice, still don't know if 25p dispel scroll is better then 50p chalice as you can only take one unless you take a very expensive scroll caddy/engineer(I sometimes do). I very seldom face elves myself as I am usually the elf player. But the times I have played T3 opponents the WM really shines.
Sofar, I never tried the Banner of Slavery list but I'd really like to. Thanks for that advice.
My history with my Chaos Dwarf army is as follows:
- First I lost almost every game. I was really frustrated.
- Then I got more experience and it got considerably better. - I won a campaign against Orcs & Goblins (but some of the battles were really close). - I beat the Wood Elves, but this was really close too (a few VP more for the Elves and this would've been a draw). - I lost against the High Elves, but only because he got lucky. In the last turn, it looked like a guaranteed victory for me, but then Alarielle's one and only attack hit my K'daai Destroyer, she rolled her one To Wound die, and the result was a 6. Unfortunately, she has Heroic Killing against evil armies, the Destroyer failed his 4+ ward save and died. That's 325 VP for the Elves, and the big HE regiment that was supposed to break this turn didn't break. Tough for me, but it was like a scene from a movie. - I fought the Dwarfs three times, losing the first two battles and winning the third one. - I beat the Lizardmen in a Storm of Magic game. - As I wrote earlier, I beat the Skaven twice (Battle for the Pass and Siege Battle). - I won two Triumph and Treachery games. One of them was with 5 players (the batrep is here in the forum), the other was with 3 players (killed a Steam Tank with magic and broke a Demigryph unit and a Halberdier horde, including characters, in a big combat).
Some of these victories were at a point when my opponents were very experienced (in fact, I consider one of these opponents to be a better Warhammer player than myself).
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