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Post by avatarofbugman on Jul 19, 2015 2:09:08 GMT
True that. The old ones only had 1, correct.
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Jul 19, 2015 3:13:10 GMT
Knights with 2 wounds?! What the hell is this? Age of Sigmar?
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Post by KevinC on Jul 19, 2015 3:27:58 GMT
LOL, Jerkface, did you read the list?
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Post by avatarofbugman on Jul 19, 2015 19:35:13 GMT
Grail knights are basically heroes
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Jul 21, 2015 22:54:43 GMT
How does the Lance Formation work?.... So, Lance formation simply means the knights get horde formation when 6 wide, rather than 10 and the enemy unit they charged loses steadfast on the turn the knights charged. I'm open to changing this, but I want to play test this. I want players to really fear the bretonnian charge. Also, I think the best path for EEFL, is to not mess with the core rulebook. RE: Bretonnian Knights making glorious charges and breaking all foes before them… I agree. I want “Bad Guy” infantry to fear the Ka-Nigg-Itts. What with their pretty helmets and fancy dressage. But, I don’t like the impact hits idea. Seems like if the Brets get IH, all mounted knights should get it. I don’t like a straight up removal of steadfast… seems powerful. Remember, the idea is to keep the 8th rules intact and make modifications via army books. I want a rule that works similar to how fear worked, maybe even a throw back to fear in previous iterations. [Option 1] Chivalric Dread: When a unit of Bretonnian Knights charges a unit of Infantry, they cause Fear for the first round of combat. The glistening armor, the tilted lances, the snorting horses – it makes weedy Gobbos miss with their stone axes. Maybe make it “SuperFear” for Grail Knights, i.e. Fear with a -1 to Ld. Versus WS1 is a medium big deal. [Option 2] Long Distance Chivalric Horror: When a unit of Bretonnian Knights charges a unit of Infantry, make a note of the charge distance dice roll and the Knight’s unit frontage. Each opposing (charged) unit makes a Ld test on 2D6 and adding their unit frontage. If the opposing unit loses, they suffer that much of a modifier to Break test Ld, including Steadfast. (this ended up being a very verbosely written rule, there must be a way to tighten it up)
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Jul 21, 2015 22:59:38 GMT
I would like to add that NOTHING does well against 30 hammerers. T4 wouldn't matter. This unit is to be avoided. Lol. HA! Darn hard they is. Bloody darn hard.
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Post by dannytee on Jul 21, 2015 23:04:19 GMT
I'm just getting around to reading the first draft of the book and this thread so here are my comments.
At page 2 of 15 at the special rule “THE LADY’S BOON” you have conditions when the special rule is lost. The second one says “Declares a Flee charge reaction with any unit with the Knightly Chivalry special rule.” I think this is intended to also include units with the Knight of the Grail special rule.
With LOUEN LEONCOEUR, THE KING OF GRAND BRETONNIA his magic item The Armour of Brilliance grants the rule “enemy attacking Louen Leoncoeur in close combat will suffer a -2 penalty on their rolls ‘To Hit’.” As far as I can think all previous special rules in the game that have given a penalty to hit are -1. So, -2 to hit seems to be too much to me. If you keep it at -2 what happens when the enemy would normally hit on a 5+ (i.e. WS3 or less) as they would now need a 7 to hit? I don't think this is defined by the basic rules for close combat.
On the knight units unit champions are +5 points where on peasant units they are +10 points. This may be intentional but just wanted to point this out/check since 10 points for all command models (champion, musician and standard) has been pretty standard for all 8th edition books.
At page 13 of 15 under the “Grail Reliquae” special rule you have a minor grammar error. This says “…the Reliquae must be deployed in the from rank in the exact same manner…”. from should be front.
Finally, on your additional lance formation rule of the strength 6 impact hit, it seems to me the strength 3 units should have strength 5 impact hits and strength 4 units should have strength 6 impact hits. Also, the way this is worded I think every knight in the unit (even those not able to attack) would get this impact hit. Is this the intent?
My take on the lance formation is that no previous special rule breaks steadfast so it doesn't seem right to me that this army should either. Also, some armies don't really care about steadfast. For example vampire counts, tomb kings and demons never run from combat so when a knight unit charges in they are still going to get bogged down by these armies if the enemy units have enough models. I would prefer to see increased damage output on the charge as opposed to breaking steadfast.
Great first draft, thank you for the effort you have put into this Kevin.
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Jul 22, 2015 0:26:03 GMT
I like the suggestions of Dan and Will regarding the charge bonuses. Breaking steadfast and impact hits is a no for me. Too much. Every army needs to have some synergy. Don't make brets "I took all of these knights so they should wreck everything". I know that isn't the intention but some want that.
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Post by KevinC on Jul 22, 2015 1:10:04 GMT
-------A model with the Knight of the Grail special rule is Immune to Psych so they cannot choose to flee.
--------'6s' always hit. Louen's armour was -2 to Hit back in the day. I wanted to bring that back, I know it's tough, but play testing...
----------It's intentional to give Knights units a discount on the champ.
----------Thanks!
-------------I'll consider revising.
------------Thanks for the comments Dan. For Lance Formation, I really want it to get play tested a lot. It's going to be the hardest thing to get right. I don't mind them breaking steadfast on the charge simply for the reasons you pointed out Dan, a lot of armies don't use it. Vampires, Daemons, Tomb Kings, etc.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Jul 22, 2015 1:26:40 GMT
I'm just getting around to reading the first draft of the book and this thread so here are my comments. At page 2 of 15 at the special rule “THE LADY’S BOON” you have conditions when the special rule is lost. The second one says “Declares a Flee charge reaction with any unit with the Knightly Chivalry special rule.” I think this is intended to also include units with the Knight of the Grail special rule. With LOUEN LEONCOEUR, THE KING OF GRAND BRETONNIA his magic item The Armour of Brilliance grants the rule “enemy attacking Louen Leoncoeur in close combat will suffer a -2 penalty on their rolls ‘To Hit’.” As far as I can think all previous special rules in the game that have given a penalty to hit are -1. So, -2 to hit seems to be too much to me. If you keep it at -2 what happens when the enemy would normally hit on a 5+ (i.e. WS3 or less) as they would now need a 7 to hit? I don't think this is defined by the basic rules for close combat. On the knight units unit champions are +5 points where on peasant units they are +10 points. This may be intentional but just wanted to point this out/check since 10 points for all command models (champion, musician and standard) has been pretty standard for all 8th edition books. At page 13 of 15 under the “Grail Reliquae” special rule you have a minor grammar error. This says “…the Reliquae must be deployed in the from rank in the exact same manner…”. from should be front. Finally, on your additional lance formation rule of the strength 6 impact hit, it seems to me the strength 3 units should have strength 5 impact hits and strength 4 units should have strength 6 impact hits. Also, the way this is worded I think every knight in the unit (even those not able to attack) would get this impact hit. Is this the intent? My take on the lance formation is that no previous special rule breaks steadfast so it doesn't seem right to me that this army should either. Also, some armies don't really care about steadfast. For example vampire counts, tomb kings and demons never run from combat so when a knight unit charges in they are still going to get bogged down by these armies if the enemy units have enough models. I would prefer to see increased damage output on the charge as opposed to breaking steadfast. Great first draft, thank you for the effort you have put into this Kevin. Daemons and the like would crumble more if steadfast is lost. They test like other units, they just don't flee
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Post by avatarofbugman on Jul 22, 2015 1:29:35 GMT
Also, as to the idea that breaking steadfast by a special rule has never been done before, that's not a good reason not to do it. Mournfang cavalry are the only mounted units that are allowed to parry due the the rule for the iron fist, for example.
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Post by KevinC on Jul 22, 2015 2:39:39 GMT
My main concern at the moment is play testing Lance Formation. At the end of the day, the Brets are a heavy cav army. They should have the best heavy cav in the game and they should be really scary on the charge.
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Jul 22, 2015 3:05:42 GMT
Still thinking about the LANCE... thinking outside the box. How 'bout this: Momentous Through Charge On the turn when a unit of Bretonnian Knights charges a unit of infantry, if they win combat and the opposing unit holds, the Knights can take a Ld test and "break through" the unit. They "bounce" out of the unit and are placed facing the same direction on the back side of the opposing unit. If there is room for the unit to be placed.
This represents a powerful charge and the mounted knights going right through the ranks and files. Game wise, it keeps the knights from getting bogged down or tarpitted. It also adds the tactical flex of getting behind the enemy lines.
Just an idea.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Jul 22, 2015 3:27:36 GMT
Interesting
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Post by KevinC on Jul 22, 2015 12:05:47 GMT
yeah wilson, def a cool idea and something to consider. I think going through the unit would ultimately turn into all kinds of weird rule situations, however, the general idea could still be used in a fashion.
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