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Post by markdienekes on Aug 12, 2022 21:54:20 GMT
Hey lord, the Garmgors are cool, do you have any models in thought I could use for them? I had developed them as an alternative to Dragon Ogres (as the latter are deemed to be more 'northerly' and have thrown in their lot with the Warriors), so you can certainly use your Dragon Ogre models to represent Garmgors if you wish. On the other hand, if you wish to use some different models to represent this specific unit, I was originally inspired by these 3D-printed models from Raven Twin: Bigger than Chaos Warhounds (as there's a set of them with Beastman riders), these originally inspired a cavalry unit called Khorngor Garmriders, but after some negativity about the idea of 'Beastmen riding Beasts', I changed the idea to make them more like giant, feral Gors that fill the gap that Dragon Ogres once occupied. But really, anything that resembles the above and is big enough to fit on Dragon Ogre-size bases will fit the bill. The only limit is your imagination! Cool, I'll take a look at those, thanks mate!
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Post by lordofskullpass on Aug 13, 2022 11:45:39 GMT
I've uploaded a second draft to replace the original, that I intend to still keep as 1.0 at this stage, with some balancing applied to the Lore of the Wild spells and corrections made to the mistakes you've found thus far. I look forward to hearing what you all think! grandmasterwang how's your detailed analysis coming on? Did my army book manage to successfully keep you occupied over your 10-hour flight?
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Post by oldmandan on Aug 13, 2022 14:45:14 GMT
I will most definitely read this and while I may not be able to play many games what with real life and stuff I will do any math hammering and probability calculations and let you know the results.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Aug 14, 2022 8:51:35 GMT
I've uploaded a second draft to replace the original, that I intend to still keep as 1.0 at this stage, with some balancing applied to the Lore of the Wild spells and corrections made to the mistakes you've found thus far. I look forward to hearing what you all think! grandmasterwang how's your detailed analysis coming on? Did my army book manage to successfully keep you occupied over your 10-hour flight? I'm currently on holidays, not flying for 5 days. Still occasionally checking eefl though haha 😄. I'm basically a sky giant at the moment (pre ogre attack) ..apparently I have a now obsolete version of your book. 😀 Currently only looked at the cover and contents. Cover is exceptional, contents for me (mobile) the page numbers on the right hand side don't appear aligned but it could be the format I'm viewing them on. I will read it in full though for sure.
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Post by oldmandan on Aug 14, 2022 9:13:35 GMT
Stunning scenery there, just reading at the moment few words changes nothing major. Will continue reading.
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Post by oldmandan on Aug 14, 2022 12:56:03 GMT
Slug skin is worded during the initiative 10 step, that could could be at the start of each combat phase models take a strength 3 hit instead. The Nurgle lore is immensely powerful and would be my automatic choice. You can literally wipe out a unit with curse of the leper and the rancid visitations or plague wind due to the lore attribute, yes it could potentially not happen but against T3 troops you only need a 4+ on the D3 roll then another 4+ after doing a little bit of damage and it's good night massive unit of Great swords. Will keep reading, first impressions though are this is an excellent piece of work and really all that's needed is some play testing and theory crafting to check for balance. Thanks for the hard work.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Aug 14, 2022 16:18:06 GMT
Super quick one on the Tuskgor chariots, why Ungor riders not Gor?
Gor are the drivers in the GW Beastmen book and you have Gor with the Razorgor chariots.
I'm thinking a 'proper' Gor maybe needed to handle the Tuskgor from a lore perspective as a mere Ungor would just get tossed/eaten.
I don't agree with the mandatory included scythes as this clashes with both the model and lore from your entry.
As a potential upgrade sure but not included.
Mang chariots don't have scythes including the original Beastmen ones. ie Tomb Kings, High Elves.
Amazing art choice with the lore entry! Perfect.
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Post by oldmandan on Aug 14, 2022 19:21:34 GMT
So far this is very promising, but there are a few changes and tweaks I'd suggest but I think that would require a really long in depth discussion, I will do some research and comparisons between armies and their versions as well.
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Post by lordofskullpass on Aug 15, 2022 9:02:08 GMT
..apparently I have a now obsolete version of your book. 😀 The new version can be accessed through the same link I posted at the start of the thread, as Google Drive was able to update the book with the new copy I saved over it, and keep the shareable link the same. Currently only looked at the cover and contents. Cover is exceptional, contents for me (mobile) the page numbers on the right hand side don't appear aligned but it could be the format I'm viewing them on. Yes I will admit the page numbers aren't exactly aligned, but Microsoft Word is to blame for that . I will see if I can make it any better, but if that's all that's wrong with my book then that's pretty good going Let me guess... the Alps? Awe-inspiring scenery as others have said. Super quick one on the Tuskgor chariots, why Ungor riders not Gor? Gor are the drivers in the GW Beastmen book and you have Gor with the Razorgor chariots. I'm thinking a 'proper' Gor maybe needed to handle the Tuskgor from a lore perspective as a mere Ungor would just get tossed/eaten. Ungors were the drivers of Tuskgor Chariots in the 6th Edition book, so I used this as another way to bridge the gap between the 6th and 7th books. My reasoning here was that Ungors are much more expendable as drivers for the ordinary, common-or-garden Tuskgor Chariots so that if one gets eaten, another can easily be bullied into taking the place of the deceased, while Gors are still required to handle the bigger steeds of the more prestigious Razorgor Chariots, which an Ungor would be considered unworthy to drive. I don't agree with the mandatory included scythes as this clashes with both the model and lore from your entry. As a potential upgrade sure but not included. I don't see how it clashes with the lore, I would have thought that the chariot's drivers would want to maximise the death-dealing capabilities of their vehicle by adding blades, but I get your point with the existing model. Adding scythes as an upgrade sounds good, I'll add that as an amendment. Amazing art choice with the lore entry! Perfect. I'm pleased with most of the artwork I was able to find for the book, a fair few pieces of 6th and 7th artwork have since been colourised, largely thanks to the AoS Battletome but others have been colourised independently, and Warhammer Total War and the mobile game Chaos and Conquest both have some excellent pieces of Beastman artwork. The only ones I'm not so happy with are the bestiary artworks for Bestigors, Ghorgons and some of the characters like Gorthor, Ghorros and Slugtongue, as I couldn't find colourised versions of those pieces of art. I'm particularly surprised John Blanche hasn't released a colourised version of the art for Slugtongue when he has released a very nice colour piece for Morghur, which features in his bestiary entry.
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Post by lordofskullpass on Aug 15, 2022 9:12:38 GMT
Slug skin is worded during the initiative 10 step, that could could be at the start of each combat phase models take a strength 3 hit instead. Hmm... I like that idea... another tool for use against Elves, something Beastmen certainly struggled to beat with their 7th book, in particular the vile Dark Elves. The Nurgle lore is immensely powerful and would be my automatic choice. You can literally wipe out a unit with curse of the leper and the rancid visitations or plague wind due to the lore attribute, yes it could potentially not happen but against T3 troops you only need a 4+ on the D3 roll then another 4+ after doing a little bit of damage and it's good night massive unit of Great swords. Much of that is actually GW's doing, all the spells in all three 'God-Lores' are exactly the same in the GW-published Warriors and Daemons of Chaos books. My only contribution to these was the Lore Attributes - given Warriors and Daemons have different attributes for each of the three Lores, it's only fair that Beastmen get their own attributes too. Will keep reading, first impressions though are this is an excellent piece of work and really all that's needed is some play testing and theory crafting to check for balance. I'm glad to hear that my work has experienced such a warm reception from you all! That's why I've summoned you and others to this thread - while I will do my fair share of playtesting once I've got my own Beastman force up to a good size, I'm relying upon you all as my fellow EEFL-ers to help me out with it. I understand you in particular can't get many games in, which is a shame, but I'll certainly be grateful for any theoryhammering you come up with. So far this is very promising, but there are a few changes and tweaks I'd suggest but I think that would require a really long in depth discussion, I will do some research and comparisons between armies and their versions as well. By all means, don't hold back! This is what this thread is for! I look forward to hearing your suggestions!
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Post by grandmasterwang on Aug 15, 2022 15:04:18 GMT
This is just from some rough notes in my downtime, only read bits and pieces.
Raiders rule, not Raider. (Clash between your main rules and entries)
Ambushers too powerful allowing charges on Leadership test. Also, remaining moves phase is when they enter which is after charges anyway, or is the point that they can only magically charge?
Lore of Beasts should be allowed on Marked wizards. Tzeentch at minimum. Being locked out of the Beasts Lore just by taking a Mark is too limiting. I can see what you were going for with each God having a lore ala WOC (ie Tzeentch/Metal for WOC) but imo Wilds and Beasts should be available to all, just because they are now blessed by a God they shouldn't lose power/knowledge.
Slaanesh adding movement and initiative is interesting.
Doombull only 4 wounds? Ld 9 maybe too powerful. Slaughterers Call needs fixing so that if not general, still start with Frenzy? Unless this is deliberate? D3+1 Impact hits too good. Doombull was already very competitive before these buffs in the stock Beastmen book. 150 points total magic items/gifts makes this guy just as bad/worse than a Vampire Lord. Far too OP. Ridiculous combos including marks can be had, leadership 8 was a limiting factor on stock Doombull but they were still really good and that was without Marks and only 100 points magic allowed.
Is the 4 wounds rather than 5 to combat the OPness or an error? 235 points is same as stock Beastmen book Doombull.
Regarding Tuskgor chariots and scythes...lore describes them as ramshackle, no thought to craftsmanship etc which clashes with scythes which require a degree of craftsmanship. Basically the scythes would fall off/get knocked off as it moves through the forest. Model wise profile works with Tuskgors as wide as chariot itself prowing through the forest.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Aug 15, 2022 15:23:11 GMT
Slug skin, imo just replicate the official GW Beastmen book wording 100% as it works, ie start of combat. Also specifies model so works with chariot mounted characters which are considered uncompetitive to gives it a bit of a boost.
Thaumaturge, unit entry has Lore of Wild, but doesn't appear in Army List entry. Tzaanbull Braystaff entry needs fixing/clearing up ala Bray staff shaman entry. Also, model (Silver tower) it's not that bulky so imo should still be allowed to use as halberd as well as Great Weapon. Can it be used to Parry? Can Thaumaturge take a magic weapon? As it's an included entry not a paid upgrade unlike a Bray shaman it's confusing being listed as a Great Weapon...ie, per Army List Thaumaturge has a hand weapon and a great weapon. Direct comparison in another army would be a Firebelly.
Khazrak leadership 8?
Taurox leadship 8? Imo it should be leadership 8, but this is lower than your stock Doombull ld 9 currently.
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Post by oldmandan on Aug 15, 2022 15:31:26 GMT
I see, I'll theoryhammer that with the lore attributes, if GW did that it should be okay. My main concern with that was that it made it a bit to straightforward for dispelling Nurgle spells. Just looking at the cost of some of the magic items they might need a tweak I points as well as in bonuses. I think we can do better with the heardstone maybe make it so beast men are unbreakable or gain frenzy in its presence knowing the gods may be watching, to trade off if it took damage there could be dire consequences for the beast men. I'll have a read through the lost and the damned that has an extensive section on beastmen and covers tzeentch and nurgle. I'll also read through my skirmish rules supplement it has a scenario using a heardstone and how to deface it so that could be used.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Aug 15, 2022 15:39:56 GMT
..apparently I have a now obsolete version of your book. 😀 Currently only looked at the cover and contents. Cover is exceptional, contents for me (mobile) the page numbers on the right hand side don't appear aligned but it could be the format I'm viewing them on. Yes I will admit the page numbers aren't exactly aligned, but Microsoft Word is to blame for that . I will see if I can make it any better, but if that's all that's wrong with my book then that's pretty good going Let me guess... the Alps? Awe-inspiring scenery as others have said. Super quick one on the Tuskgor chariots, why Ungor riders not Gor? Gor are the drivers in the GW Beastmen book and you have Gor with the Razorgor chariots. I'm thinking a 'proper' Gor maybe needed to handle the Tuskgor from a lore perspective as a mere Ungor would just get tossed/eaten. Ungors were the drivers of Tuskgor Chariots in the 6th Edition book, so I used this as another way to bridge the gap between the 6th and 7th books. My reasoning here was that Ungors are much more expendable as drivers for the ordinary, common-or-garden Tuskgor Chariots so that if one gets eaten, another can easily be bullied into taking the place of the deceased, while Gors are still required to handle the bigger steeds of the more prestigious Razorgor Chariots, which an Ungor would be considered unworthy to drive. I don't agree with the mandatory included scythes as this clashes with both the model and lore from your entry. As a potential upgrade sure but not included. I don't see how it clashes with the lore, I would have thought that the chariot's drivers would want to maximise the death-dealing capabilities of their vehicle by adding blades, but I get your point with the existing model. Adding scythes as an upgrade sounds good, I'll add that as an amendment. Amazing art choice with the lore entry! Perfect. I'm pleased with most of the artwork I was able to find for the book, a fair few pieces of 6th and 7th artwork have since been colourised, largely thanks to the AoS Battletome but others have been colourised independently, and Warhammer Total War and the mobile game Chaos and Conquest both have some excellent pieces of Beastman artwork. The only ones I'm not so happy with are the bestiary artworks for Bestigors, Ghorgons and some of the characters like Gorthor, Ghorros and Slugtongue, as I couldn't find colourised versions of those pieces of art. I'm particularly surprised John Blanche hasn't released a colourised version of the art for Slugtongue when he has released a very nice colour piece for Morghur, which features in his bestiary entry. Yes Alps. Currently in Prague, have said goodbye to Austria now I do remember that now regarding the 6th Beast of Chaos book with the ungor. I personally think a Bestigor wouldn't trust/let a lowly Ungor steer them into battle but that's just me. It would also mean that a Shaman/Beastlord on a chariot is being 'led' by a plebby Ungor as it's the same upgrade. I considered the upgrade from 6th to 7th from Ungor to Gor to be a fix or correction by GW but that's just my opinion of course. It's also easier to remember if it's a Gor/Bestigor on both options (same WS). I've run Beastmen lists with 8 chariots and it keeps things quick/easy to remember from a gameplay perspective as well. Scythes are commented on before. I don't disagree on Beastmen wanting to cause maximum damage so agree on it as an upgrade option, just not mandatory.
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Post by lordofskullpass on Aug 15, 2022 16:33:06 GMT
This is just from some rough notes in my downtime, only read bits and pieces. Raiders rule, not Raider. (Clash between your main rules and entries) This was purposefully done for individual characters, because they are individual models, whereas units of multiple models would have a plural in the rule. Ambushers too powerful allowing charges on Leadership test. Also, remaining moves phase is when they enter which is after charges anyway, or is the point that they can only magically charge? With Beastman Ambush, I wanted to give some bonus to the Ambushers rule to Beastmen to appeal to their history of being Ambush kings, because if this is taken away then Beastman ambushers will just stand there and risk getting shot like other races' Ambushers which doesn't fit with lore. I personally thought Leadership tests were a valid means of balancing that out as Beastmen generally have average Leadership, so it'll only work 50% of the time, and it isn't even guaranteed that they would make the charge. Perhaps just a free bonus move instead or something? Lore of Beasts should be allowed on Marked wizards. Tzeentch at minimum. Being locked out of the Beasts Lore just by taking a Mark is too limiting. I can see what you were going for with each God having a lore ala WOC (ie Tzeentch/Metal for WOC) but imo Wilds and Beasts should be available to all, just because they are now blessed by a God they shouldn't lose power/knowledge. I see your point, but that would mean there would be no reason not to take a Mark - with my current system it gives the player more of a choice between having one or more Marked Shamans or going for a more Chaos Undivided approach. The main reason I raised the Leadership of the Doombull was because I didn't really get how a Beastlord could have superior Leadership to a Doombull in 7th, when you consider that a Doombull is just as capable as a leader, he just trades brains for more brawn. Especially when you consider an Ogre Tyrant has Leadership 9 and is no more intelligent than a Doombull. Slaughterers Call needs fixing so that if not general, still start with Frenzy? Unless this is deliberate? This was deliberately done to work in tandem with the one Minotaur unit allowed to be taken in Core. I wanted to develop my own definition of this rule and not rely upon the 7th Edition book in this case. D3+1 Impact hits too good. I doubt that adding one extra Impact Hit on average would be considered too strong, especially considering how big and powerful a Doombull is. Look at Ogres, even ordinary Ogres can achieve more than this in a successful Ogre charge, and Doombulls are significantly bigger. Doombull was already very competitive before these buffs in the stock Beastmen book. 150 points total magic items/gifts makes this guy just as bad/worse than a Vampire Lord. Far too OP. Ridiculous combos including marks can be had, leadership 8 was a limiting factor on stock Doombull but they were still really good and that was without Marks and only 100 points magic allowed. I hear you on this, but GW is already to blame for allowing Chaos Lords and Vampires to cheat in this way (and Dwarfs to a lesser extent with most of their characters getting a +25 point bonus to Magic Items), and Warriors of Chaos and Vampire players won't want their beloved cheese characters nerfed because it's 'official' even though GW abandoned and no longer care about the game. What can I do? Keeping it at 100 points allowance for Beastmen will be playing into the hands of the existing OP-ness of Warriors of Chaos and Vampire players. But then I suppose doing the same for Beastmen would just start turning it into an arm's race as you've underlined. Perhaps I could return it to 100 points max and just refuse to play with Warriors of Chaos or Vampire players who won't agree to fit Mutations/Powers into their 100 point Magic Item allowance to balance their characters (when I'm playing any army I have, not just my Beastmen). Is the 4 wounds rather than 5 to combat the OPness or an error? Hmm, I might have got that mixed up with the 6th Edition Doombull which had one less wound I think, I'll have a look into that. 235 points is same as stock Beastmen book Doombull. This was deliberate. 235 points is a lot, already more than an Ogre Tyrant. Perhaps if I reduce the Magic Item limit this might feel more justified. Regarding Tuskgor chariots and scythes...lore describes them as ramshackle, no thought to craftsmanship etc which clashes with scythes which require a degree of craftsmanship. Basically the scythes would fall off/get knocked off as it moves through the forest. Model wise profile works with Tuskgors as wide as chariot itself ploughing through the forest. You could say the same about Orc Boar Chariots, yet they can have scythes. Orcs have even less skill at craftsmanship than Beastmen so if dim Orcs can do it, surely the Children of Chaos can too? But as already agreed, I like the idea of having them as an option so players can have a bit of fun customising them. Thaumaturge, unit entry has Lore of Wild, but doesn't appear in Army List entry. That's definitely an error, I'll fix that. Tzaanbull Braystaff entry needs fixing/clearing up ala Bray staff shaman entry. Also, model (Silver tower) it's not that bulky so imo should still be allowed to use as halberd as well as Great Weapon. Can it be used to Parry? Can Thaumaturge take a magic weapon? As it's an included entry not a paid upgrade unlike a Bray shaman it's confusing being listed as a Great Weapon...ie, per Army List Thaumaturge has a hand weapon and a great weapon. Direct comparison in another army would be a Firebelly. I made the Tzaanbull Braystaff slightly different on purpose to represent how much bigger a Tzaanbull Braystaff would be compared to a standard Bray-Shaman Braystaff. As per Bray-Shaman Braystaffs, they can be used to parry and may not be used if the Thaumaturge takes a Magic Weapon. I can make this explicit in the book as another amendment. I think this must be a relic of profiling him using the 6th Edition rules, I'll change that to 9. Taurox leadship 8? Imo it should be leadership 8, but this is lower than your stock Doombull ld 9 currently. And this is a relic of the 7th Edition rules that I missed. Will change that to 9, unless you definitely oppose Doombulls having the same LD as Beastlords. Thanks for taking the time to pose these points to me, apologies if I sound argumentative in some places, but I do feel passionately about some of the imbalances that currently exist in 8th because of bad rules writing to try and push models. GW were bastards with the Warriors of Chaos book, and the Vampire one to a lesser extent, trying to push them by making their characters OP because they remain two of the company's favourite factions to this day.
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