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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 29, 2022 14:30:30 GMT
Yes, and the forward arc only comes into play "when the charge is declared."
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Post by thorpyuk on Aug 29, 2022 15:26:31 GMT
Yes, and the forward arc only comes into play "when the charge is declared." ... which is after the charging unit has moved, as its an out-of-sequence move. You declare 'a counter charge action' at the point the charging unit first declares its charge, as written in the AB- not a charge.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 29, 2022 15:54:42 GMT
Where do you get that the charge is declared after the charging unit has moved? On the contrary: the Counter Charge rules specifically state (to quote them again): "If a Counter Charge action is declared, the Detachment makes an out of sequence move that is resolved as if it had just declared a charge against the charging unit."
Declaring a Counter Charge is as if declaring a charge: it is equivalent to declaring a charge. The rules then tell you when the move is executed, because that does not follow from any BRB rules, precisely because it is out of sequence. Likewise, it is specified that the enemy does not get to make any charge reactions against a Counter Charge, because that does not follow from any BRB rules either. However, "otherwise, all the normal charging rules apply." The 6th and 7th edition also specifically state otherwise for charging front or flank - the 8th does not.
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Post by thorpyuk on Aug 29, 2022 16:30:39 GMT
I disagree... besides... if how it works is as you've stated, what's the point of the whole counter charge rule? Isn't it pointless?
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Post by 1plussave on Aug 29, 2022 16:39:29 GMT
Once again a case of an 8th edition army book writer being a fucking hack, attempts to cut out some of the abilities of the previous edition or simplify the rules have left an oddly worded ability that has many, including these 2, possible readings:
One; the Countercharge is declared immediately after the Parent Units Reaction, thus the Charge is also declared immediately and later resolved based on the facing where the Charging Enemy Unit and your Detachment begin the Charge Sub-phase.
In this case you will never be able to resolve the Countercharge outside of exceptions that do not justify the existence of the ability.
2; The Countercharge rule is declared immediately after the Parent Units reaction, the Charge move is resolved "...After your Opponents has moved all of his charging units..." specifically; "...Resolved as if it had just declared a charge against the charging unit." in which case we can assume that the Detachment isn't actually treated as declaring the charge until "Just" after your opponent has moved their chargers, Meaning you work out your arcs then.
In this case you still need to position well to be able to resolve a Countercharge but now its an actual ability, instead of a freak occurrence.
At the end of the day this is the Empire's Tiq'taq'to and Terradons, among other things, either the rule is supposed to function and we are to assume it works in a way that it does or we are to take the reading where it doesn't function and accept that we aren't playing Elves.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 29, 2022 16:57:11 GMT
This is not Empire's Tiq'taq'to, because that rule is not usable. Counter Charge is usable, even if the chances of getting a flank charge have changed from almost 100% to "very situational.". A front charge is a Counter Charge too. And I do not think it is an oversight: as I have pointed out before, the old Detachment rules have generally been nerfed, in favour of the new additional "battlefield psychology."
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Post by thorpyuk on Aug 29, 2022 17:34:14 GMT
2; The Countercharge rule is declared immediately after the Parent Units reaction, the Charge move is resolved "...After your Opponents has moved all of his charging units..." specifically; "...Resolved as if it had just declared a charge against the charging unit." in which case we can assume that the Detachment isn't actually treated as declaring the charge until "Just" after your opponent has moved their chargers, Meaning you work out your arcs then.
^This. Its in there & obviously intended (RAI) to be used somehow. I believe the wording was changed to stop people keeping their detachments at around 120° to their parent units. I suspect 'supporting charge' was removed as its identical to just a standard charge
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Post by 1plussave on Aug 29, 2022 19:42:24 GMT
This is not Empire's Tiq'taq'to, because that rule is not usable. Counter Charge is usable, even if the chances of getting a flank charge have changed from almost 100% to "very situational.". A front charge is a Counter Charge too. And I do not think it is an oversight: as I have pointed out before, the old Detachment rules have generally been nerfed, in favour of the new additional "battlefield psychology." The reading forcing Countercharges to always be Front Arc charges would be restricting the ability entirely to enemy units that are wider than the parent unit or a situation where the opponent deliberately leaves a corner for the detachment to join. Resulting in the Countercharge being either failed charges, because your opponent can just choose to either not leave an opening, or only single files being added to the fight in every sane case. It seems to me they tried to remove the "Always a flank charge" part but failed to specify when you figure the charge arc, leaving us with 2 points where they could be; either when the Countercharge rule must be declared, or counting the Charge as being declared just after your opponent's movement.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 29, 2022 20:15:39 GMT
But that reading does not mean that the Counter Charge will always lead to a front charge. As I said, it is very situational: just like any other charge, it will now depend on the relative positions when the charge is declared. Granted, the chances of a flank charge are far smaller - which seems to have been the point.
That they have not thought this through, is another matter. It is not the only Detachment thing they have not thought through - conferring the "special rule" steadfast springs to mind.
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Post by thegoat on Aug 29, 2022 21:38:14 GMT
It is very unambiguous when I read the counter charge section in the Empire army book.
The sentence "This move is made after your opponent has moved all of his charging units..." tells us when the rules for the charging are evaluated. The phrase "this move" is acting as a pronoun referring to a subject or object of a previous sentence in the paragraph (there is only one previous sentence). The only thing it can be referring to is the "out of sequence move" from the previous sentence. That "out of sequence move" is in fact the result of the detachment declaring the Counter Charge. The "out of sequence move" is the only thing that happens subsequent to the detachment declaring a counter charge.
Consequently the rule for which arc the detachment must charge into triggers after the opponent's unit has moved. Not when the counter charge is declared. As declaring the counter charge only causes the later "out of sequence" move to happen.
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pete
New Member
Posts: 29
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Post by pete on Aug 31, 2022 20:22:00 GMT
Counter Charge is capitalised whenever it is mentioned. As such, does this not mean that it is not (strictly) a charge? (It is a separate special rule in its own right.) Therefore, could you not argue that the zone is not determined when you declare Counter Charge? The detachment makes a move as it it had just declared a charge, which happens once your enemy has moved all his charging units and only then is the zone determined…unless I’m missing something.
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Post by thegoat on Aug 31, 2022 22:22:27 GMT
Counter Charge is capitalised whenever it is mentioned. As such, does this not mean that it is not (strictly) a charge? (It is a separate special rule in its own right.) Therefore, could you not argue that the zone is not determined when you declare Counter Charge? The detachment makes a move as it it had just declared a charge, which happens once your enemy has moved all his charging units and only then is the zone determined…unless I’m missing something. Yes. That is part of my argument above. Declaring a Counter Charge is not declaring a charge.
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Post by DiscoQing on Aug 31, 2022 23:08:08 GMT
I wouldn't normally weigh in, but I couldn't let this be argued to the contrary. Literally written in the first sentence of the rule, and the last... Counter charge is treated as a normal charge, just simply out of sequence.
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Post by thegoat on Sept 1, 2022 0:05:11 GMT
I wouldn't normally weigh in, but I couldn't let this be argued to the contrary. Literally written in the first sentence of the rule, and the last... Counter charge is treated as a normal charge, just simply out of sequence. I don't think anybody is disagreeing with that. We are debating when the zone the detachment must charge into (front/flank/rear) is evaluated. Before or after the opponent's unit has moved.
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