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Post by thorpyuk on Aug 29, 2022 10:00:39 GMT
Hi all,
I've got an Empire army that I've barely used, for a few reasons... one that I've always had my butt handed to me on a plate when I've used them (thanks GW for making Cavalry useless in 8th), but also that I'm less familiar with the book / rules etc.
My question relates to a counter-charge by a Detachment. I thought they'd always charge into the flank when counter charging, but spotted on another thread this isn't necessarily true. If its not, then where do they charge, as 9/10 both the charging unit and the parent unit being charged allow no spare frontage for a counter-charge to go into.
Secondly, the AB states that the counter-charge happens 'after' the main charge has been complete. "This move is made after your opponent has moved all of his charging units"
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Post by thegoat on Aug 29, 2022 11:01:35 GMT
I'm not really sure what you're asking. If there is nowhere exposed on the enemy unit, for the detachment to counter charge, then the detachment can't counter charge.
If you have a question about a specific situation, please post a picture.
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Post by thorpyuk on Aug 29, 2022 11:14:43 GMT
I'm not really sure what you're asking. If there is nowhere exposed on the enemy unit, for the detachment to counter charge, then the detachment can't counter charge. If you have a question about a specific situation, please post a picture. I mean, they would always charge the exposed flank... but I've seen posts that suggest that they 'must' charge the front, since that's the zone that they'd be facing when the original charge was declared? |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 29, 2022 11:25:13 GMT
Here is one we prepared earlier. As suggested by mottdon in his Empire unit breakdown thread. I'll add those when I get into adding more stuff too, though, I think the Counter Charge issue may be more of a RAW vs RAI topic, better suited for it's own thread. This needs to be more of a quick reference and good strategies thread. I think this is more of another ghost of editions past. The 6 & 7 Empire AB specified: "Note that if the Detachment can draw a line of sight to an exposed flank of the enemy, and has enough Movement to reach it, it can charge the enemy in the flank even if it should have charged to the front, according to the normal rules for charging." The 8th edition does not have this exemption, therefore normal rules apply. So, what are the normal rules? - Empire AB. p. 30: If an enemy unit declares a charge against a Regimental Unit, and the Regimental Unit does not flee as a charge reaction, then each of its unengaged Detachments within 3" can make either a Support Fire or a Counter Charge action (see below). These actions are declared immediately after their Regimental Unit’s charge reaction. lf the Regimental Unit does not get a charge reaction for any reason then the Detachment cannot make a Support Fire or a Counter Charge action. [My Italics]
This is entirely consistent with the normal BRB sequence, the Counter Charge being a special kind of Charge reaction: - BRB p. 16: In this sub-phase, you'll choose one of your units and declare the charge you want it to make. Your opponent will then have the chance to have his unit hold its ground or react to the charge, either by standing and shooting or fleeing.
Once the charge reaction has been resolved, you can nominate another of your units to declare a charge, and so on, until all of your charges have been declared and reacted to — then you get to make your charge rolls and resolve the charges.
Now, it is in this phase that front/flank/rear charges are determined:
- BRB p 21:
A charging unit's position when the charge is declared determines whether it charges into the front, flank or rear of the enemy unit. If the charging unit is in the target's frontal zone when the charge is declared then it charges into the front.
Whether a charger is in the front, flank or rear of its intended target is determined before charges are declared, so make sure you check before charge reactions are declared.
Given this, a Counter Charge does not automatically result in a flank charge. Of course, contrary to the other charge reactions, a Counter Charge reaction cannot be resolved immediately, since the charger has not moved yet. That is why the AB specifies: - Empire AB p. 30: If a Counter Charge action is declared, the Detachment makes an out of sequence move that is resolved as if it had just declared a charge against the charging unit. This move is made after your opponent has moved all of his charging units, as long as one or more enemy units has successfully completed a charge against the detachment’s Regimental Unit. The enemy does not get to make any charge reactions against a Counter Charge, but otherwise all the normal charging rules and bonuses apply. [Italics mine]
Note also that the 6/7 Empire ABs also specified that Detachments - do not cause Panic in other Empire units - do not suffer the -1 modifier for S&S, when conducting Support Fire - could conduct a Supporting Charge. None of which exists in the 8th.
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Post by thegoat on Aug 29, 2022 11:53:16 GMT
I'm not really sure what you're asking. If there is nowhere exposed on the enemy unit, for the detachment to counter charge, then the detachment can't counter charge. If you have a question about a specific situation, please post a picture. I mean, they would always charge the exposed flank... but I've seen posts that suggest that they 'must' charge the front, since that's the zone that they'd be facing when the original charge was declared? You determine the zone the detachment must charge after the charge to the parent unit is complete. So if you had decent unit placement, between the detachment and the parent unit, the detachment will go into the flank. But it is possible, with poor unit placement, they won't get a flank charge. |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 29, 2022 11:54:37 GMT
thegoat: Incorrect. See my post above yours.
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Post by thorpyuk on Aug 29, 2022 12:03:37 GMT
So what's the point of them, other than supporting fire (if applicable?)
Seems to me Empire got a massive nerf in 8th... weaker Detachment rules, a points cost increase across the board & cavalry that's just a heavily armoured dead-rubber
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Post by thegoat on Aug 29, 2022 12:33:41 GMT
thegoat : Incorrect. See my post above yours. I read your post. You are wrong. The Empire army book states, "the Detachment makes an out of sequence move that is resolved as if it had just declared a charge against the charging unit. This move is made after your opponent has moved all of his charging units..." Now, it is in this phase that front/flank/rear charges are determined: BRB p 21: A charging unit's position when the charge is declared determines whether it charges into the front, flank or rear of the enemy unit. If the charging unit is in the target's frontal zone when the charge is declared then it charges into the front. Whether a charger is in the front, flank or rear of its intended target is determined before charges are declared, so make sure you check before charge reactions are declared. Are you using this BRB rule to imply that the charge zone is determined immediately when the counter charge action is declared (before the opponent unit moves)? That BRB rule says "when the charge is declared". But a detachment counter charge is actually not a charge. It is only resolved "as if" it were a charge. But that resolution happens after the opponent unit moves. A detachment counter charge is, "an out of sequence move". The counter charge is, "resolved as if it had just declared a charge against the charging unit.... after your opponent has moved all of his charging units..." Clearly the counter charge target zone is determined after the enemy unit moves. |
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Post by thorpyuk on Aug 29, 2022 13:28:45 GMT
thegoat : Incorrect. See my post above yours. I read your post. You are wrong. The Empire army book states, "the Detachment makes an out of sequence move that is resolved as if it had just declared a charge against the charging unit. This move is made after your opponent has moved all of his charging units..." Now, it is in this phase that front/flank/rear charges are determined: BRB p 21: A charging unit's position when the charge is declared determines whether it charges into the front, flank or rear of the enemy unit. If the charging unit is in the target's frontal zone when the charge is declared then it charges into the front. Whether a charger is in the front, flank or rear of its intended target is determined before charges are declared, so make sure you check before charge reactions are declared. Are you using this BRB rule to imply that the charge zone is determined immediately when the counter charge action is declared (before the opponent unit moves)? That BRB rule says "when the charge is declared". But a detachment counter charge is actually not a charge. It is only resolved "as if" it were a charge. But that resolution happens after the opponent unit moves. A detachment counter charge is, "an out of sequence move". The counter charge is, "resolved as if it had just declared a charge against the charging unit.... after your opponent has moved all of his charging units..." Clearly the counter charge target zone is determined after the enemy unit moves. That would make more sense... it still means it's not a 100% guaranteed flank charge, but prob 95% of the time it should be |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 29, 2022 13:54:03 GMT
Are you using this BRB rule to imply that the charge zone is determined immediately when the counter charge action is declared (before the opponent unit moves)? That BRB rule says "when the charge is declared". But a detachment counter charge is actually not a charge. It is only resolved "as if" it were a charge. But that resolution happens after the opponent unit moves. A detachment counter charge is, "an out of sequence move". The counter charge is, "resolved as if it had just declared a charge against the charging unit.... after your opponent has moved all of his charging units..." Clearly the counter charge target zone is determined after the enemy unit moves. "As if" in all of warhammer means that the relevant rules are to be applied, e.g.BRB p. 36: "If they are not dispelled immediately when they are cast, remains in play spells can be dispelled at any point during a subsequent Magic phase, using dispel dice as normal, or dice from the power pool as if they were dispel dice if it is your turn." BRb p. 58: "An overrun is essentially a special pursuit move. When making an overrun, the victorious unit moves 2D6" directly forwards, as if they were pursuing a fleeing enemy to their front All other rules governing pursuit moves, such as intervening units and terrain, apply to overruns." BRB p. 71: "The hits are distributed exactly as if they were shooting attacks (see page 42 for more information on shooting attacks, and page 96 for characters and shooting attacks)." etc. etc. And unless specifically stated otherwise, normal rules apply. As stated above, the specific exemption of the 6th and 7th edition that LoS to the enemy flank (and sufficient range) was enough to attack the flank does not exist anymore. Hence, normal rules apply. Likewise, "If a Stand and Shoot charge reaction is declared, the unit makes a normal, although out of sequence, shooting attack against the charging unit" (BRB p. 17), and here too all the normal rules for shooting apply, unless specifically stated otherwise. |
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Post by thegoat on Aug 29, 2022 14:02:15 GMT
Are you using this BRB rule to imply that the charge zone is determined immediately when the counter charge action is declared (before the opponent unit moves)? That BRB rule says "when the charge is declared". But a detachment counter charge is actually not a charge. It is only resolved "as if" it were a charge. But that resolution happens after the opponent unit moves. A detachment counter charge is, "an out of sequence move". The counter charge is, "resolved as if it had just declared a charge against the charging unit.... after your opponent has moved all of his charging units..." Clearly the counter charge target zone is determined after the enemy unit moves. "As if" in all of warhammer means that the relevant rules are to be applied, e.g.BRB p. 36: "If they are not dispelled immediately when they are cast, remains in play spells can be dispelled at any point during a subsequent Magic phase, using dispel dice as normal, or dice from the power pool as if they were dispel dice if it is your turn." BRb p. 58: "An overrun is essentially a special pursuit move. When making an overrun, the victorious unit moves 2D6" directly forwards, as if they were pursuing a fleeing enemy to their front All other rules governing pursuit moves, such as intervening units and terrain, apply to overruns." BRB p. 71: "The hits are distributed exactly as if they were shooting attacks (see page 42 for more information on shooting attacks, and page 96 for characters and shooting attacks)." etc. etc. And unless specifically stated otherwise, normal rules apply. As stated above, the specific exemption of the 6th and 7th edition that LoS to the enemy flank (and sufficient range) was enough to attack the flank does not exist anymore. Hence, normal rules apply. But it is stated otherwise in this situation. The sentence, "This move is made after your opponent has moved all of his charging units..." tells us exactly when the counter charge move happens. In that sentence the phrase "this move" refers to the counter charge in whole. The counter charge being, "an out of sequence move." The rule for determining which zone the detachment must charge triggers after the opponent's unit has completed their charge. |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 29, 2022 14:13:15 GMT
"The move is made" means exactly that: moving the unit. It is clarifies when the Detachment is executing its charge move - in no way, shape or form is it an exemption to the normal rules that specify that "the charging unit's position when the charge is declared determines whether it charges into the front, flank or rear of the enemy unit."
As always: unless specifically stated otherwise, normal rules apply. Specific exemptions require a specific reference - just as the 6th and 7th edition had.
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Post by thorpyuk on Aug 29, 2022 14:14:23 GMT
I have to agree with Goat here Fvon... its an out of sequence move made entirely after the charging unit has moved. The one exception this time (8th) being that if the line of sight 'after' the charge has moved puts the charge in the front, rather than the side, then and only then does it become a front charge... EG it's no longer an automatic flank attack
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 29, 2022 14:19:39 GMT
LoS would have nothing to do with that. And as pointed out above, it is not because S&S is "out of sequence" that the rules for LoS and forward arc do not apply anymore.
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Post by thorpyuk on Aug 29, 2022 14:26:07 GMT
Sorry, forward-arc is what I meant
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