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Post by thorpyuk on Sept 17, 2022 19:43:46 GMT
Hi all,
I cant find the answer to this in the BRB, but what happens if you fire a stone thrower, and the resulting template scatters widely and hits a unit engaged in combat?
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Post by thegoat on Sept 17, 2022 21:11:35 GMT
Models (friend and foe) covered by the blast marker are hit. The model (friend or foe) under the center hole is hit with the higher strength.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 17, 2022 21:53:55 GMT
Whar thegoat says. BRB p. 39 (Shooting into combat): "Some war machine weapons, particularly those that use templates, can accidentally hit friends whilst aiming at the enemy. The key word here is 'accidentally' — you cannot purposefully aim a template so that some of your models will be hit." |
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Post by thorpyuk on Sept 18, 2022 8:50:26 GMT
That's exactly what I thought... I just didn't know whether you might randomise hits somehow- for instance, under the shooting section under 'shooting into combat' there's this sentence as to why you cant shoot into combat:
"Remember that while a fight may look like two separate blocks of troops fighting head-to-head, it's actually a swirling melee where no one stays still long enough to offer a safe shot!"
Then under the war machines section > firing a stone thrower:
"The template cannot be placed over friendly models, or enemy models from a unit that is engaged in combat, as the crew refuse to deliberately target their allies (although the shot might well go wide and hit friends by mistake as we'll discover later)."
But then later, it doesn't go into detail really, only shows how the template would scatter normally.
I just thought perhaps when a stone or other such template weapon lands on a combat group, because of the 'melee' it might mean any hits were randomised...
But I also understand why you'd just hit the only unit only under the template despite them being in combat
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 18, 2022 11:29:31 GMT
Well, randomising does indeed happen - in the case of BS shooting into CC. With templates, there is no need for randomising, because you exactly know what is hit. As it happens, the Skaven "Life is Cheap" special rule sums it up neatly, because wind globes are BS weapons, the death globe a template.
Skaven Official Update Version 1.7, p.4:
"Poisoned Wind Globadiers and Bombadiers are allowed to fire into combat. Providing they are not in base contact with a foe, they can target any enemy unit within range and line of sight, even if that unit is engaged in close combat. All successful hits from poison wind globes must be randomised between the fighting units (1-3 friend, 4-6 foe). If there are multiple friendly or enemy units, further randomise to determine exactly which one is struck. When throwing a death globe do not randomise hits, the models underneath the template are hit.”
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Post by thorpyuk on Sept 18, 2022 13:18:36 GMT
Thanks Fvon, that's interesting ref: skaven, I didn't know about that rule! At least it's easy to know what's hit & what's not
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Post by baaderthegreat on Sept 18, 2022 14:07:03 GMT
Well, randomising does indeed happen - in the case of BS shooting into CC. With templates, there is no need for randomising, because you exactly know what is hit. As it happens, the Skaven "Life is Cheap" special rule sums it up neatly, because wind globes are BS weapons, the death globe a template. Skaven Official Update Version 1.7, p.4: "Poisoned Wind Globadiers and Bombadiers are allowed to fire into combat. Providing they are not in base contact with a foe, they can target any enemy unit within range and line of sight, even if that unit is engaged in close combat. All successful hits from poison wind globes must be randomised between the fighting units (1-3 friend, 4-6 foe). If there are multiple friendly or enemy units, further randomise to determine exactly which one is struck. When throwing a death globe do not randomise hits, the models underneath the template are hit.” In one of the Miniwargaming battle reports, a fanatic went through a unit that was engaged in combat. The guys randomized the hits between both combat units (the one the fanatic went through and the one he didn't). Which should be wrong as there is no such rule for the fanatics. |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 18, 2022 15:44:24 GMT
Quite so. It is not a Shooting attack, and its own rules specify (O&G AB p. 53): "When a Fanatic moves through a unit (friend or foe), it inflicts D6 Strenght 5 Armour Piercing hits." So, only if the Fanatic moves through both units engaged in CC, both will be affected.
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Post by sonofkurnos on Sept 18, 2022 15:46:36 GMT
Quite so. It is not a Shooting attack, and its own rules specify (O&G AB p. 53): "When a Fanatic moves through a unit (friend or foe), it inflicts D6 Strenght 5 Armour Piercing hits." So, only if the Fanatic moves through both units engaged in CC, both will be affected. MWG are pretty hit and miss for doing the rules right if I remember correctly 🤷 |
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Post by baaderthegreat on Sept 18, 2022 20:45:48 GMT
Well, randomising does indeed happen - in the case of BS shooting into CC. With templates, there is no need for randomising, because you exactly know what is hit. As it happens, the Skaven "Life is Cheap" special rule sums it up neatly, because wind globes are BS weapons, the death globe a template. Skaven Official Update Version 1.7, p.4: "Poisoned Wind Globadiers and Bombadiers are allowed to fire into combat. Providing they are not in base contact with a foe, they can target any enemy unit within range and line of sight, even if that unit is engaged in close combat. All successful hits from poison wind globes must be randomised between the fighting units (1-3 friend, 4-6 foe). If there are multiple friendly or enemy units, further randomise to determine exactly which one is struck. When throwing a death globe do not randomise hits, the models underneath the template are hit.” But that Update also deletes that part of the slaves' "Expendable" rule that says that BS shooting is randomised: "Page 36 Expendable: Delete the last two sentences."
Do I understand that correctly? The same update allows Poisoned Wind Globadiers and Bombadiers to fire into combat and says that the hits must be randomised... but also changes the slaves' rule that when you shoot into their combat, hits aren't randomised (unless the shots come from Poisoned Wind Globadiers and Bombadiers)?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 18, 2022 21:39:27 GMT
That is correct. Do not forget: unless specifically stated otherwise, normal rules apply. You normally cannot shoot into CC, and any deviation of that rule will as such be specified. When I said "randomising does indeed happen," I did not want to imply that it always happens, but if it happens, it is with BS shooting. The general rules for templates already envisage they can scatter and hit units in CC. As such, a template will always hit any model under it - unless, of course, specifically stated otherwise.
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Post by baaderthegreat on Sept 18, 2022 21:41:50 GMT
Yes, that's what the rules say.
But what may be the reason for this? It doesn't seem very logical.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 18, 2022 21:55:22 GMT
No argument there. For some reason, and quite counter-intuitively, they seem to have wanted to make Skaven Slaves into one of the best units in the game(for their points, that is).
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Post by oldmandan on Sept 22, 2022 6:13:03 GMT
Yes that seems very counter productive, when the whole point of life is cheap and shooting into combat was supposed to be a risk. When they changed it in 7th I stopped bothering shooting into combat, just didn't seem to be as viable option as it once was. Seems rather unfair that change really.
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