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Post by bierbaron on Oct 14, 2022 12:52:54 GMT
The follwing situation, in yesterday's game, a Plaguebearer unit was accompanied by a Nurgle Herald with the banner and the Locus. The question came up: Do the additional hits created by the Exalted Locus of Contagion benefit from the Armour Piercing rule granted by the Razor Standard?
Relevant Rules: Armour Piercing Wounds caused in close combat by a model with this special rule (or who is attacking with a weapon that has this special rule) inflict a further -1 armour save modifier, in addition to those for Strength. For example, a Strength 4 model with the Armour Piercing special rule would inflict a -2 armour save modifier when striking in close combat, rather than the usual -1. If a model has a weapon with the Armour Piercing rule, only attacks made or shots fired with the weapon are Armour Piercing.
Razor Standard Models in a unit with the Razor Standard have the Armour Piercing special rule.
Exalted Locus of Contagion If this model, or any model in his unit, scores a 6 To Hit with a Poisoned Attack, the target immediately suffers an additional automatic hit resolved at Strength 4.
To me, it boils down to the question, is the additional hit caused by the model that struck the poisoned hit, then it benefits from AP, or is it caused by the Locus, which is not a model and therefore does not benefit from AP.
I lean towards the latter, but of course, there are other opinions. How do you see it?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Oct 14, 2022 14:19:04 GMT
You correctly identified the crux of the matter, and I agree: the hit is an effect of the Locus, not a hit caused by the model.
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Post by 1plussave on Oct 15, 2022 4:26:49 GMT
For the purposes of items that return attacks that are, for example, armour saved in melee does this result in the Herald taking those hits?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Oct 15, 2022 11:30:55 GMT
If it is armour saved, that would normally already be for wounds, rather than hits. Do you have anything specific in mind? It may well depend on the exact wording of the rule.
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Post by 1plussave on Oct 15, 2022 14:02:19 GMT
If it is armour saved, that would normally already be for wounds, rather than hits. Do you have anything specific in mind? It may well depend on the exact wording of the rule. I was thinking of that Beastman item, the Ramhorn helm? I forget which one. Theres also the one on Queek Headtaker.
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Post by bierbaron on Oct 15, 2022 21:03:51 GMT
The Ramhorn Helm grants extra attacks, if I am not mistaken, and that would mean that the extra attacks generated by successful armour saves can be allocated to any eligible target in base contact. Queek's armour is a bit trickier for me, as it generates automatic hits for each successful armour save "against the enemy that struck the blow". This is not the Herald even if he carries the Locus. It seems these extra hits are either A) lost due to no model causing the attacks, but the Locus, which in turn cannot be hit, see above or B) the hits are generated and then distributed like shooting against the unit that caused the hits. As Queeks rules read that an "enemy" is hit, and no reference to "model" is made, it may be sensible to view the Plaguebearer unit as the "enemy" that is hit.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Oct 15, 2022 21:07:30 GMT
The case of the Ramhorn helm is rather straightforward: "For every armour save he passes, the bearer may make a bonus attack at his basic strength" (Beastmen AB p. 93). Hence, he can choose to make an additional attack at any model, as long as it is in btb.
Queek's case is less clear (Skaven AB p. 72): "For each successful armour save made in close combat, the armour inflicts a Strength 5 hit against the enemy that struck the blow." How do we interpret "the enemy that struck the blow"? Is it is the Locus as such - in which case the return attack is lost; is it the Herald, in which case he is the one that will be affected? Or is it the model that struck the initial blow, after all? I can see an FAQ (which obviously will not be forthcoming) go every way.
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