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Post by thielemann on Nov 2, 2022 10:38:32 GMT
We had a discussion recently about the Shadow Armour from the High Elf army book.
It does not state that Shadow Armour is heavy armour as it says for example in the BRB about the Armour of Destiny.
Since according to the Errata, all armour saves are combinable, my opponents argument was that he could combine heavy armour and the Shadow Armour, giving him a 3+ save.
I do not believe that is the case because unlike with magic weapons, there is no "What's in a name?" rule in the magic armour section. So the name of the armour piece is indeed important to determine whether it is an armour, a shield or another piece of armour such as a helm.
My argument was that according to this line of thinking an Empire Captain could wear both his plate armour and also the armour of destiny because for the plate armour too it does not state that it is a variation of heavy armour but rather simply that it grants a 4+ save. GW probably assumed that everyone would conclude that both Plate Armour and the Shadow Armour are.... armour. Whereas for example the Helm of Discord is not an armour and can be combined with armour and shield.
Is that correct?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 2, 2022 17:25:19 GMT
The "What's in a name" paragraph has to be read in conjunction with the rule that states: "Unless otherwise stated, a magic weapon is treated as a hand weapon, and follows the rules for such." It clarifies that just the name of a magic weapon is not sufficient to count as "otherwise stated."
As you say, there is no such rule in the Magic Armour section, precisely because not all magic armour is treated the same. Unfortunately, the Magic Armour section could have been more precise in its description, since it uses (suits of) "armour" both in a general and more restricted sense. In the first sentence "suits of armour — magical breastplates, ensorcelled shields, and so on" the term "suits of armour" includes also shields and helms; elsewhere, the text distinguishes between "suits of armour and shields," but not "helms," which the text does not mention at all. Note that the BRB list of Magic Armour does not specifically state in the description that helms are helms, while some ABs do and most do not.
However, in practice, both BRB and AB do distinguish between three categories:
1. Armour
2. Shields
3. Helmets
That there are more types of armour (in the restricted sense, number 1 of the list) than just Light and Heavy Armour, is acknowledged by BRB p. 43: "The value of a model's armour save is determined by the equipment it carries, as detailed in its entry in the relevant Warhammer Armies book. Light armour provides a 6+ armour save, meaning that a 6 must be rolled to save a wound, whilst heavy armour bestows a 5+ armour save. Some special types of armour, such as Chaos armour or the Gromril armour of the Dwarfs, grant a formidable 4+ armour."
Hence, BRB p. 402 applies: "A model can only have one suit of armour and one shield, so if you give a model a magical suit of armour or a magical shield, it replaces any mundane equivalent already worn by the model."
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Post by thielemann on Nov 2, 2022 18:04:43 GMT
Thank you very much for explaining in such a well-written way. As expected, it still did not convince my opponent.  |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 2, 2022 19:56:26 GMT
Predatory Fighter anyone?
That said, there is another line of argument, but that still does not allow the SA to be stacked with mundane armour. The relevant rules here are (still) BRB p. 502:
"Except where otherwise stated, magical suits of armour and shields follow the same rules as mundane ones, but keep in mind that:
A model can only have one suit of armour and one shield, so if you give a model a magical suit of armour or a magical shield, it replaces any mundane equivalent already worn by the model."
Let us assume they are precise here, in which case you only have two armour categories: suits of armour and shields. Shields are always specified as such in both BRB and ABs. Everything else (including helms) falls under "suits of armour." But you still can only have one of those. If he still objects, ask him which armour category the Shadow Armour belongs to. It cannot be too difficult, since there are only 2.
The only drawback: this also means that wearing a magical helm will preclude you from taking a mundane suit of armour. And who knows? In previous editions, the description of magical helms always specifically stated that it could be combined with normal armour. That is not the case any longer. Personally, I still think option 1 is more likely. In either case, the Shadow Armour will not stack.
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pete
New Member
Posts: 29
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Post by pete on Nov 4, 2022 17:43:26 GMT
My understanding is that (suits of) armour confer a basic save that is then modified by one point for each of: shield, mounted, barding or helm. Scaly skin is modified by one or two points (and so on…) depending on (suits of) armour. The faq stating all armour can be combined refers to the table (pg 43) but still does not cover how to combine a 5+ save with (for example) a 6+ save. This can be inferred but is not RAW. It seems to me that your ‘friend’ is picking and choosing when to use RAW and when not to.
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Post by vulcan on Nov 5, 2022 3:11:58 GMT
The simple option is to find someone else to play, if they're going to go all-out cheesy on the rules interpretations.
Note that simple is not the same thing as easy.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 5, 2022 9:43:26 GMT
Hmm, having looked at other language and earlier editions, I must come to the conclusion that RAW the option 2 above is, in fact, correct. 1. The French and Spanish BRB simply use "armour" ( armure/armadura) where the English version uses "suit of armour." 2. The 6th edition BRB section on Magic Armour didnot mention helms either, but the description of magic helms in the ABs (and, indeed, of most Magic Armour) always contained some statement to the effect that they can be combined with mundane armour. 3. The 7th edition BRB p. 121 was very clear on the subject: - If a character wears magic armour, he cannot also wear ordinary armour and, needless to say, he can only wear one set of armour.
Magical shields and helms also count as magical armour, so you cannot have a suit of magical armour and carry a magical shield or helm unless specifically stated in the description of the item.
If a model has a magic shield he is allowed to wear a suit of normal armour. If a model is wearing a magic helm he is allowed to wear a suit of normal armour, and carry a normal shield. If the model is wearing a suit of magic armour he is allowed to carry a normal shield."
Even so, the description of helms in the ABs still included a statement that they could be combined with other equipment as normal. 4. Unless specifically stated otherwise, normal rules apply. So, in 8th, the general rules on Magic Armour have only two categories of Magic Armour: armour and shields. Shields are always specifically identified as such. Since helms fall under armour and have no specific exemption to be combined with mundane armour (either in the BRB or in the ABs), normal rules apply, and you cannot take mundane armour with them, other than a shield (and barding). That said, I think most players will easily agree to make a house rule and follow the 7th edition rules here. |
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