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Post by mcnuggs on Dec 7, 2022 0:01:43 GMT
Basically title. Looking for clarification on a few niche cases that have come up recently.
1) Would Wildheart (Beasts attribute) work on the upcasted/bubble version of Pann's and Horros if the only targets were all mounted? For example, a bubbled Horros targets all characters within 12", which are the Wizard (on a horse) and two characters in the same unit, also on horse. Would it cost 20+ to cast, or go down to 19+ because of the attribute? What if one of the characters wasn't mounted and was in a different unit?
2) If you have a character casting Purple Sun or another magical vortex from the second rank of a unit (mage is in second rank due to command + characters,) it says that the template must begin in base contact with the Wizard. Would firing off a Purple Sun forward mean that you auto-hit the front rank of your unit?
Diagram:
PNSSS
MSSSS
SSSSS
P = Prince, N = Noble, S = Silver Helm, M = Mage
3) When casting template spells, in this example Pit of Shades, on characters with Monstrous mounts, do the rider and the mount have to take separate tests/are both hit?
How would this work for mounts such as the Screaming Bell or Cauldron of Blood?
Am I correct in thinking that the Bell/Cauldron would auto-die due to a lack of an Initiative stat?
Thank you!
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Post by DiscoQing on Dec 7, 2022 0:23:12 GMT
1. Yes, the Spell is cast targetting a mounted individual - so gains the Wild heart attribute.
2. Yes, the template is placed touching the casters base, as such will effect friendly models that happen to be in front of the caster.
3. If hitting cavalry or monstrous cavalry, the model makes 1 test using the highest stat (treated as 1 model).
Against a character riding a chariot or monster, both are hit and take a test against their own stats (character/mount).
A Screaming bell and a Cauldron aren't war machines, so wouldn't auto-die when making a characteristic test.
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Post by mcnuggs on Dec 7, 2022 1:59:44 GMT
1. Yes, the Spell is cast targetting a mounted individual - so gains the Wild heart attribute. 2. Yes, the template is placed touching the casters base, as such will effect friendly models that happen to be in front of the caster. 3. If hitting cavalry or monstrous cavalry, the model makes 1 test using the highest stat (treated as 1 model). Against a character riding a chariot or monster, both are hit and take a test against their own stats (character/mount). A Screaming bell and a Cauldron aren't war machines, so wouldn't auto-die when making a characteristic test. How would that work if they have an Initiative of “-“? Wouldn’t that mean they automatically fail a la the BRB? |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 7, 2022 9:40:17 GMT
You use the Initiative of the crew.
BRB Official Update Version 1.9, p.6:
Q. For characteristic tests, is the best value in the unit always used? (p10)
A. If the unit is required to take a characteristic test, the best value in the unit is used. If every model in a unit is required to take a characteristic test, then each model uses its own best value instead.
For the Screaming Bell,there is this somewhat superfluous FAQ (Skaven Official Update Version 1.7, p.6):
Q: If the Screaming Bell/Plague Furnace is struck by a spell such as Pit of Shades or Dwellers Below, does the rider test separately from the Screaming Bell/Plague Furnace to see whether they are destroyed?(p43 & p48)
A: Yes.
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Post by IbnSeesAll on Dec 7, 2022 12:18:53 GMT
Unless of course they have no crew - like a Chariot mount for a Tomb King Chariot - in which case it is an automatic fail for the chariot and the character tests separately.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 7, 2022 12:41:28 GMT
The principle is correct, but the example is not: in that particular case you would use the Initiative of the Skeletal steed. The W, T & Ld of chariot beasts is never used [edit: and normally, they do not have values for them], but there is no such restriction for other characteristics. However, the Cauldron does not have steeds, and since Malekith (but not the Death Hag) replaces the crew, any Initiative test would result in an automatic fail for the Cauldron, when ridden by Malekith.
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Post by sonofkurnos on Dec 7, 2022 13:01:52 GMT
and since Malekith (but not the Death Hag) replaces the crew, any Initiative test would result in an automatic fail for the Cauldron, when ridden by Malekith. ...Malekith... Do you mean Hellebron? 😘 |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 7, 2022 13:09:20 GMT
Somehow I mixed up Malekith's Chariot with the Cauldron. Hellebron does not replace the crew, so no automatic fail. The principle is still correct, but another example was not. Once again proof (if needed) that my memory is not any longer what it never used to be.
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Post by sonofkurnos on Dec 7, 2022 13:16:22 GMT
Somehow I mixed up Malekith's Chariot with the Cauldron. Hellebron does not replace the crew, so no automatic fail. The principle is still correct, but another example was not. Once again proof (if needed) that my memory is not any longer what it never used to be. I don't believe it! 🤣 |
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Post by IbnSeesAll on Dec 7, 2022 15:43:15 GMT
The principle is correct, but the example is not: in that particular case you would use the Initiative of the Skeletal steed. The W, T & Ld of chariot beasts is never used [edit: and normally, they do not have values for them], but there is no such restriction for other characteristics. However, the Cauldron does not have steeds, and since Malekith (but not the Death Hag) replaces the crew, any Initiative test would result in an automatic fail for the Cauldron, when ridden by Malekith. Apologies, you are correct. Although a Giant's 'Thump with Club' attack tests on the lowest Leadership of a combined profile so would cause any chariots or other models with a - for Initiative a lot of problems. It's great for dealing with those pesky Steam Tanks |
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Post by 1plussave on Dec 7, 2022 22:55:43 GMT
The principle is correct, but the example is not: in that particular case you would use the Initiative of the Skeletal steed. The W, T & Ld of chariot beasts is never used [edit: and normally, they do not have values for them], but there is no such restriction for other characteristics. However, the Cauldron does not have steeds, and since Malekith (but not the Death Hag) replaces the crew, any Initiative test would result in an automatic fail for the Cauldron, when ridden by Malekith. Apologies, you are correct. Although a Giant's 'Thump with Club' attack tests on the lowest Leadership of a combined profile so would cause any chariots or other models with a - for Initiative a lot of problems. It's great for dealing with those pesky Steam Tanks In this scenario there might be a difference vis a vis having 0 and having no initiative score on part of a model. |
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Post by grandmasterwang on Dec 8, 2022 14:16:07 GMT
Basically title. Looking for clarification on a few niche cases that have come up recently. 1) Would Wildheart (Beasts attribute) work on the upcasted/bubble version of Pann's and Horros if the only targets were all mounted? For example, a bubbled Horros targets all characters within 12", which are the Wizard (on a horse) and two characters in the same unit, also on horse. Would it cost 20+ to cast, or go down to 19+ because of the attribute? What if one of the characters wasn't mounted and was in a different unit? 2) If you have a character casting Purple Sun or another magical vortex from the second rank of a unit (mage is in second rank due to command + characters,) it says that the template must begin in base contact with the Wizard. Would firing off a Purple Sun forward mean that you auto-hit the front rank of your unit? Diagram: PNSSS MSSSS SSSSS P = Prince, N = Noble, S = Silver Helm, M = Mage 3) When casting template spells, in this example Pit of Shades, on characters with Monstrous mounts, do the rider and the mount have to take separate tests/are both hit? How would this work for mounts such as the Screaming Bell or Cauldron of Blood? Am I correct in thinking that the Bell/Cauldron would auto-die due to a lack of an Initiative stat? Thank you! For 2) you could put the template on the side (touching mage base) couldn't you? To avoid nuking your own dudes. |
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Post by sonofkurnos on Dec 8, 2022 14:29:04 GMT
Basically title. Looking for clarification on a few niche cases that have come up recently. 1) Would Wildheart (Beasts attribute) work on the upcasted/bubble version of Pann's and Horros if the only targets were all mounted? For example, a bubbled Horros targets all characters within 12", which are the Wizard (on a horse) and two characters in the same unit, also on horse. Would it cost 20+ to cast, or go down to 19+ because of the attribute? What if one of the characters wasn't mounted and was in a different unit? 2) If you have a character casting Purple Sun or another magical vortex from the second rank of a unit (mage is in second rank due to command + characters,) it says that the template must begin in base contact with the Wizard. Would firing off a Purple Sun forward mean that you auto-hit the front rank of your unit? Diagram: PNSSS MSSSS SSSSS P = Prince, N = Noble, S = Silver Helm, M = Mage 3) When casting template spells, in this example Pit of Shades, on characters with Monstrous mounts, do the rider and the mount have to take separate tests/are both hit? How would this work for mounts such as the Screaming Bell or Cauldron of Blood? Am I correct in thinking that the Bell/Cauldron would auto-die due to a lack of an Initiative stat? Thank you! For 2) you could put the template on the side (touching mage base) couldn't you? To avoid nuking your own dudes. Now have an image of some drive by fireballing... In seriousness, think this works though , good call ✌️ |
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Post by rahotep75 on Dec 8, 2022 14:33:06 GMT
So, yes, you can place the template against the side of the Wizard, but the center of a magic vortex must be placed in the casters front arc.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 8, 2022 14:33:27 GMT
Nice idea, but I am afraid it does not work (BRB p. 31): "A magical vortex does not have a target instead it uses one of the round templates, which is placed in base contact with the caster and with its centre within the caster's front arc, and then moves as described in the spell" [Italics mine].
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