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Post by kaptplanet on Jul 13, 2023 1:29:22 GMT
Hey guys just looking for some clarity/ sanity check. I played a game against a friend who was using lizardmen last night. He was fielding a unit of 5 salamanders for the first time. He shot me up for a good portion of the game. With several misfires. Eating several skinks. By the last turn we finally got into combat with the salamanders and then we're a little stumped on how many handlers could strike. As I only had 1 ungor and 1 doombull in base contact. Based on the hunting pack special rule they follow the monsters and handler special rule. These two rules together I interpret them in the following. We had to keep track of each salamander separately not as a unit ie. When a misfire occurred the salamander ate one of its 3 skinks. Therefore when in CC we know how many handlers can strike.
We then wondered how monster reaction test would unfold. Because inevitably a salamander would lose all its skinks assigned to it. Would it test on the monster reaction table? If so does that mean the unit could test several times a game and how do you handle different result? Do they stack eg 1-2 stupidity with 5-6 Frenzy and hatred? Or does the newest supersed the old result?
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Post by thegoat on Jul 13, 2023 3:01:21 GMT
I'm not a lizardman player. But I think every salamander and its handlers are a separate unit. It sounds like your friend played them as one unit?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 13, 2023 8:07:13 GMT
A Salamander Hunting Pack is made up of 1+ packs, with each pack consisting of 1 Salamander and 3 Skink Handlers. Hence, the unit needs to take a Monster Reaction test, each time the handlers of a pack are removed. The Monster Reaction test results will apply to all the remaining beasts, but do not stack, because it is not specified they do. Indeed, they simply cannot stack, because Grrrrr is incompatible with the other two.
Lizardmen AB p. 46: "If the unit needs to take a Monster Reaction test, the result applies to all remaining monstrous beasts."
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 13, 2023 8:36:44 GMT
I should point out, however, that in 6th/7th edition the Salamander special rules specifically stated that the unit needed to take a Monster Reaction test "if all the Skink Handlers are slain" - a phrase that is conspicuously missing in 8th edition.
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pete
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Post by pete on Jul 15, 2023 7:25:01 GMT
Looking across the rules in both Lizardmen and BRB for both 7th and 8th, the wording of the combination of rules seems pretty consistent regarding when a Monster Reaction test should be taken. The idea that a unit (on 8th) can be made of multiple Hunting Packs doesn’t take away from the idea that it is still a single unit. As such I would only test on the Monster Reaction chart once all handlers (in the unit) are removed. This means you wouldn’t need to keep track of each Salamander’s handlers differently.
On another note, it seems that when shooting at a Monster and Handlers, you distribute wounds (handlers on a 5+), however, with ridden monsters you distribute hits.
I’d be interested to hear how others play this.
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Post by wundapantz on Jul 16, 2023 12:28:36 GMT
we play it you remove all the handlers in a unit before the monster reaction roll and the wounds are randomised not the hits... forcing the wounds against the salamanders toughness
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Post by kaptplanet on Jul 17, 2023 14:38:12 GMT
we play it you remove all the handlers in a unit before the monster reaction roll and the wounds are randomised not the hits... forcing the wounds against the salamanders toughness How do you make out which handlers can strike? In my above example 2 of the 5 salamanders were not in base contact with the enemy therefore not all handlers could hit back based on the monster and handler rules. The handlers can strike what is in base contact with there monster. So you kind of have to keep track which skink belongs to which salamander. For our game we just spread the handlers evenly for simplicity.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 17, 2023 16:57:50 GMT
In the Monster and Handlers special rule, the handlers are always from one specific Monster, for the simple reason that Monsters are single model units. Now, Salamanders "follow all the rules for Monsters and Handlers, as described in the Warhammer rulebook.
When the BRB p. 73 specifies:
"In close combat, the handlers can direct their attacks against any enemy in base contact with their monster" "If the monster is removed, so are its handlers"
It is clear that these are the handlers of a specific Salamander, and that you therefore have to keep track of the number of handlers for each Salamander. That does support that a Monster Reaction test is triggered when all the handlers of a specific Salamander are removed. [Edit: remember that the 6/7th edition stated exemption does not exist anymore.] As it happens, this is actually confirmed by the Spanish version of the Lizardmen AB, which reads (p.46): Si la unitad nedessita hacer chequeos de Reacciones de Monstruos, el resultado etc... or "If the unit needs to take Monster Reaction tests (plural!), the result..." If the MRt is only triggered when all the handlers in the unit are removed, you can have only a single test.
But as always, if you and your opponent agree, feel free to play it as you wish.
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pete
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Post by pete on Jul 18, 2023 13:56:49 GMT
I’ll try to explain my reasoning. Firstly, BRB pg 73 “… we ignore them [the handlers]…treating the monster itself as the extent of the unit.”
Lizardmen 8th Pg 94 “Salamander Hunting Pack Unit size: 1+ packs”
Would these to points together make ‘1+ Salamander Hunting Packs’ the unit, and thus the equivalent of a monster in the M&H rules? If correct, you can insert Salamander Unit into the wording to replace Monster. If nothing else it does demonstrate the difficulty of applying M&H rules to a unit of monstrous beasts, ie. what counts as the unit. Can you have a unit of units?
The other point was about the exemption in the 6/7th Lizardmen book which, to me, reads very similar to the Brb core rules:
BRB 8th pg 73: “Once all the handlers have been removed, the monster must take a Monster Reaction test…”
Lizardmen 7th pg 56 “…if all the Skink Handlers are slain, then the remaining Salamanders must take a…[MRt]”
One final point is that the Lizardmen rules make no mention of how to deal with wounds caused by ranged attacks. If each salamander’s handlers needed to be tracked separately, surely the Lizardmen rules would state something about the requirement to randomise hits amongst salamanders within the unit before determining whether salamander or handler is hit.
Therefore, In close combat you would have up to 3 skink attacks for each salamander in base contact.
I have no answer for the Spanish wording of the rule; which version would be less likely to have errors? If the French and German rules follow the Spanish version then I’d suspect that’s pretty good evidence (if anyone has a copy?).
Let me know what you think!
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 18, 2023 16:48:13 GMT
pete : As pointed out above, a Monster is always a single model unit. No doubt any uncertainty arises form the fact that the AB author did not think through all the consequences of applying a rule for a single model unit to a unit with several models. That said, the Lizardmen AB p. 46 itself specifies: "A unit with this special rule consists of a number of monstrous beasts and infantry handlers. Although they are monstrous beasts and not monsters, they follow all the rules for Monsters and Handlers, as described in the Warhammer rulebook." Here, the author himself equates the monstrous beasts (plural!), i.e. the Salamanders, with monsters (again plural), not the Salamander unit. This is also born out by my observation above: To add: Forgetting, for a moment, previous editions, and approaching the issue as a completely new player: what would your interpretation be, based solely on 8th edition rules?
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Post by kaptplanet on Jul 18, 2023 18:49:33 GMT
In close combat do you still randomise wounds between the salamander and handlers? How do you assign wounds (shooting or CC) to the salamander handlers?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 18, 2023 21:38:40 GMT
kaptplanet: Yes, that is always the case. Even with attacks that can specifically choose its target, the wound is still randomised. Basically, the handlers act as a kind of conditional and "one use only" ward save. BRB p. 73: "When the monster suffers an unsaved wound, roll a D6. On a roll of 1-4 the monster suffers the wound as normal, but on a roll of 5-6 a handler model is removed instead." BRB Official Update Version 1.9, p.9: Q: When a unit with the Monster and Handlers special rule takes an unsaved Wound from a template or from a weapon/ability that can pick out its target; do you still roll a D6 to see if the Wound is inflicted upon the monster or its handlers? (p73) A: Yes you do unless specifically stated otherwise in the unit’s special rules.
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pete
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Post by pete on Jul 19, 2023 8:13:56 GMT
Thanks, Fidelis, I think I get it now. It behaves like a unit of individual monsters (only they don’t get a thunderstomp). Each one is its own separate entity like a unit of characters would be. In fact, just seeing it from this perspective it all makes sense. Randomise which salamander is hit when shooting missile weapons, then roll to wound and then see whether salamander or handler are hit. In close combat, you need to nominate which salamander you are directing attacks at. if you happen to kill the handlers of a particular salamander before the salamander, itself, gets killed (in the same initiative step) then roll for a monster reaction test.
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Post by kaptplanet on Jul 19, 2023 13:43:34 GMT
Basically, the handlers act as a kind of conditional and "one use only" ward save. Well when you put it like that. It makes a lot of sense.
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karnus
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Post by karnus on Jul 20, 2023 7:24:00 GMT
Thanks, Fidelis, I think I get it now. It behaves like a unit of individual monsters (only they don’t get a thunderstomp). Each one is its own separate entity like a unit of characters would be. In fact, just seeing it from this perspective it all makes sense. Randomise which salamander is hit when shooting missile weapons, then roll to wound and then see whether salamander or handler are hit. In close combat, you need to nominate which salamander you are directing attacks at. if you happen to kill the handlers of a particular salamander before the salamander, itself, gets killed (in the same initiative step) then roll for a monster reaction test. I’m not sure you nominate which salamander to hit in close combat. That would result in a unit of multiwound models all having different wounds? I think in CC you treat them like any other unit.
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